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WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF JESUS RETURNED?

paul_of_arrakis
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GUNWOUNDS

GUNWOUNDS

Posted
Posted

Yes. To give up the will is to lose it, while to die with it is not because you are not there afterwards to experience loss.

However... if it is my Will to serve God and NEVER EVER falter ... and the removal of my Free Will

nemafakei

nemafakei

Posted
Posted

"However... if it is my Will to serve God and NEVER EVER falter ... and the removal of my Free Will  guarantees this.... then the losing of my Will has actually preserved my Will for eternity"

Good for you, but that'll help you alone - what about everyone else, we who wish to make other decisions.

GUNWOUNDS

GUNWOUNDS

Posted
Posted

Good for you, but that'll help you alone - what about everyone else, we who wish to make other decisions.

I was simply giving a counter-argument to the claim that:

"in all instances ... losing your Free Will is bad or undesirable"

and to the claim that :

"in all instances ... losing your Free Will results in its destruction"

:)

GUNWOUNDS

GUNWOUNDS

Posted
Posted

that didnt make much sense gunwounds...

TMA what i am saying is that if God removed my Free Will tommorrow and it made me become the person i always wanted to be ... how is that bad?

I agree that all "sentient beings" should be created with a Free Will... However... once that "sentient being" pledges its undying loyalty to the creator... then there is no harm in removing the Free Will to prevent any faltering or mistakes.... especially if the creator is perfectly good and unchanging.

God will be the same God now and forever....  so if i pledge my loyalty and love to him today  based on who and what he is.... then there is no reason for me to ever change my mind because he will be the same tommorrow and the same 1 million years from now.

.

SurlyPIG

SurlyPIG

Posted
Posted

Isn't there a distinction between an angel like Lucifer, and a person's soul that ascends to heaven after death?  Perhaps angels are an exception.  If humans have free will on Earth, isn't it plausible that angels have free will in Heaven?

Dante

Dante

Posted
Posted

TMA what i am saying is that if God removed my Free Will tommorrow and it made me become the person i always wanted to be ... how is that bad?

I agree that all "sentient beings" should be created with a Free Will... However... once that "sentient being" pledges its undying loyalty to the creator... then there is no harm in removing the Free Will to prevent any faltering or mistakes.... especially if the creator is perfectly good and unchanging.

God will be the same God now and forever....

GUNWOUNDS

GUNWOUNDS

Posted
Posted

To preserve the life and not the will is to sacrifice the self, for what is the self without the will? An empty shell.

aaah but if you are already aligned to what your Will wanted... and then it is removed.. then what the Will wanted will be preserved .... basically preserving the Will .. i dont see it as being lost.

A lost Will would be  if God forced me to serve him and i wanted to serve Satan instead.

or a Lost Will would be if God force me to serve him and i wanted to just act randomly and selfishly.

But if God forced me to serve him and i wanted to serve him for eternity.... that is a Will preserved forever.

I do not believe that someone can force you to do something that you already wish to do with a passion.

But here's the kicker..... if you want to do your own thing or if you want serve evil.... then God doesnt force you to come to heaven and worship him.... so he is actually respecting your free will.

:)

Dante

Dante

Posted
Posted

I do not believe that someone can force you to do something that you already wish to do with a passion.

I do. And I hardly think damning someone for all eternity of they choose not to do what you want is a free choice.

DukeLeto

DukeLeto

Posted
Posted

If "Jesus" were to return as a regular guy, he would be locked up, although he would develop a cult following, no doubt.  After all, you can find at least a few mindless believers in anything, no matter how preposterous.  (Hence why religion exists in the first place. :P)

If, and this is assuming a lot, Jesus were real and did return as "the wrath incarnate," (so let me get this straight...your god is "kind and benevolent" and we've all been "saved" by "His love", yet his son is to come back and mercilessly kill us all?) I would say that the 67% of the world he is about to wipe out might have something to say about that.

index.php?action=dlattach;topic=14143.0;id=356

Really, though, he wouldn't survive past the first week with that attitude.[attachment archived by Gobalopper]

Apollyon

Apollyon

Posted
Posted

"so really its all about what kind of spin you put on it."

Yeah and that's a heckload of spin you just put on it.

If Jesus did return with angels, they would either be wussy and pathetic or they would be book of Enoch style, which in turn would destroy the new testament and a lot of people's faith. Also, if the OT were being more closely followed, there would be very few if any surviving judgement day...

GUNWOUNDS

GUNWOUNDS

Posted
Posted

"so really its all about what kind of spin you put on it."

Yeah and that's a heckload of spin you just put on it.

If Jesus did return with angels, they would either be wussy and pathetic or they would be book of Enoch style, which in turn would destroy the new testament and a lot of people's faith. Also, if the OT were being more closely followed, there would be very few if any surviving judgement day...

ehe i dont see how a spiritual being could be considered wussy since it is a spritual entity capable of far more than we.  If anythin our mortal shells are extremely weak... one small puncture and we are expired.

.

Apollyon

Apollyon

Posted
Posted

"ehe i dont see how a spiritual being could be considered wussy since it is a spritual entity capable of far more than we.  If anythin our mortal shells are extremely weak... one small puncture and we are expired."

You can't really base that on anything as you have no base of comparison with angels. No where in either old or new or excluded gospels is angelic limitation mentioned, except possibly in the book of Enoch with their being exiled and imprisoned etc.

GUNWOUNDS

GUNWOUNDS

Posted
Posted

If Jesus did return with angels, they would either be wussy and pathetic or they would be book of Enoch style, which in turn would destroy the new testament and a lot of people's faith.

Riiight because you are the authority on Angels right? Because you know everything about them their composition, the rules they have to follow, their capabilities, their duties, and their current orders.

oh ok i am sure glad we have an angel expert in here....

.......*whew* i was begining to worry what would happen to humanity if someone here didnt know every detail about higher dimensional creatures that our minds cannot even comprehend and that are dumbed down in literature for our puny human minds to understand and relate to. thank goodness for  apollyon.

:)

Dante

Dante

Posted
Posted

He's as much an expert as anyone else. Considering the whole thing's a matter of opinion anyway, anyone can be an expert on their own opinion of something that doesn't exist.

Apollyon

Apollyon

Posted
Posted

"Riiight because you are the authority on Angels right? Because you know everything about them their composition, the rules they have to follow, their capabilities, their duties, and their current orders.

oh ok i am sure glad we have an angel expert in here....

.......*whew* i was begining to worry what would happen to humanity if someone here didnt know every detail about higher dimensional creatures that our minds cannot even comprehend and that are dumbed down in literature for our puny human minds to understand and relate to. thank goodness for  apollyon."

I'm glad to see we have a world expert on sarcasm.

The whole point in my post is that we *don't* know their composition etc because it isn't mentioned. Thanks for arguing against yourself. :)

GUNWOUNDS

GUNWOUNDS

Posted
Posted

You can't really base that on anything as you have no base of comparison with angels. No where in either old or new or excluded gospels is angelic limitation mentioned, except possibly in the book of Enoch with their being exiled and imprisoned etc.

the books do reference that angels have different duties such as messenger, warrior, etc, etc,

also it seems that angels/demons

Apollyon

Apollyon

Posted
Posted

"the books do reference that angels have different duties such as messenger, warrior, etc, etc,

also it seems that angels/demons  are really big on following certain "rules"

also the angels being exiled and imprisoned are fallen angels  and yes i would imgaine that an angel that does not have the backing of teh creator would be weaker."

Yeah but I meant physical and power limitations as per what I thought we were talking about.

:D

TMA_1

TMA_1

Posted
Posted

hmm there will be no removal of free will. Just the opposite actually, we will have our old nature removed, and because of that our true natures will shine through.

No longer will we be chained to our sin nature, but we will be free with a fully developed free will.

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