Did God really sacrifice his only son?

[filecore]

This confuses me, based on a discussion I had with a friend earlier.  Did God really sacrifice his son for us, as we are told?  Because a LOT of emphasis is placed upon this.  Yet when you talk about God and Jesus, we are also told that they are one and the same, parts of a single entity.  So taking for a moment that all the Biblical events were literal truth, isn't it a contradiction?

After all: a) God didn't sacrifice Jesus, he provided a way for him to return to heaven and become one again; b) he also didn't because he would be sacrificing himself.  If he did that, he would cease to exist (hence the term, "sacrifice"); c) even if he did, didn't he create a simple scapegoat for all of humanity?  That's not really justice.

Maybe I'm wrong and there's a simple answer to this (or I phrased it wrong and will be flamed to death) but let me know.

[TMA_1]

This is the problem when somebody is trying to understand doctern from an already biased and one sided opinion. YOu will twist the words of God into meaning things that clearly arent supposed to be read as.

It is like for instance I saw this annotated bible written by athiests, and a part in first kings talks about david sleeping with a virgin because of his age. They say this is XXX and sinful/sexual blah blah.

THey dont care to realize that this was an actual medical practice in ancient times that physicians like Galen actually used to keep elder people warm. Body heat is actually very good for a person to be around if they are older. Especially by a younger person. Obviously they arent going to have a young boy but a young girl because this might cause other stimulation that would keep david warm. I mean this practice was done all over the ancient world, but of course athiests with already biased viewpoints will twist it to their desired effect.

I would respect the opinions filecore if you didnt already close your mind to what hte bible says. that is truth, because I have seen what you have siad.

[Navaros]

best way i understand it based on hearing many devout Christian leaders talk about it is:

during the period of time when Jesus was on the cross - that is when he was taking on the burden of the entire Universe's sin debt.

[Andrew]

So if Jesus takes on all of humanities sins, does that mean each individual is not responsible/has no burden for their sins?

[Navaros]

So if Jesus takes on all of humanities sins, does that mean each individual is not responsible/has no burden for their sins?

IF they accept Jesus Christ and His teachings and believe He is their own personal Saviour, then yes.

if they do not - then Jesus was taking extra sin on as bonus credit i guess. 

the price for that is - He will send you to Hell when you come to His Judgement Seat  8)

[Acriku]

TMA, if you can't answer it just say so, don't make up excuses to avoid the question.

I think filecore is right to be confused. Not a day goes by without hearing or seeing the sacrifice of Jesus, being around the Bible Belt. But, I don't think that they've really thought it through.

For starters, let it be assumed that Jesus was God. This is what many Christians believe, so we'll stick with it.

The story goes that Jesus was crucified and that he sacrificed himself for humanity and their sins (correct me if I'm wrong). Now, doesn't this strike you a bit odd that God the Almighty imposed rules on humanity, and made it punishable to break them, and turned around and let himself sacrifice himself for humanity? If God is unchangeable, then why did he go through the process of imposing rules on us and then have a part of himself (I don't know how else to put it) sacrifice himself for our sins?

Now, how exactly did Jesus sacrifice himself, and why is it such a big ordeal? First off, it's God. He's Almighty, eternal, and omnipotent. Making a human version of himself and then killing it off is not a big achievement. He's God! Also, Jesus didn't really perish and cease to exist. If Jesus is God, and if God is still here, there was no sacrifice at all. Some might say that he sacrificed his human body for us, well what good does that do if he's God? A real person actually sacrificing himself to save others is a bigger achievement.

And why should we be grateful? This is like thanking our government for relieving us from taxes that it imposed in the first place. It makes no sense to be grateful. This reminds me of 1984 by Orson Wells, where the proles would be grateful to Big Brother for lengthening the chocolate ration a little bit, where Big Brother was the one who shortened it in the first place.

In summation, none of this adds up to what Christians around where I live stock it up to be.

[Navaros]

Akirku why do you always go to great lengths to reply to others who know absolutely NOTHING about the Bible yet you ignore the posts of someone who does (myself)?

[Acriku]

Well, it was directed towards anybody really. If you want, it was towards you Nav.

[Navaros]

TMA, if you can't answer it just say so, don't make up excuses to avoid the question.

I think filecore is right to be confused. Not a day goes by without hearing or seeing the sacrifice of Jesus, being around the Bible Belt. But, I don't think that they've really thought it through.

For starters, let it be assumed that Jesus was God. This is what many Christians believe, so we'll stick with it.

The story goes that Jesus was crucified and that he sacrificed himself for humanity and their sins (correct me if I'm wrong). Now, doesn't this strike you a bit odd that God the Almighty imposed rules on humanity, and made it punishable to break them, and turned around and let himself sacrifice himself for humanity? If God is unchangeable, then why did he go through the process of imposing rules on us and then have a part of himself (I don't know how else to put it) sacrifice himself for our sins?

Now, how exactly did Jesus sacrifice himself, and why is it such a big ordeal? First off, it's God. He's Almighty, eternal, and omnipotent. Making a human version of himself and then killing it off is not a big achievement. He's God! Also, Jesus didn't really perish and cease to exist. If Jesus is God, and if God is still here, there was no sacrifice at all. Some might say that he sacrificed his human body for us, well what good does that do if he's God? A real person actually sacrificing himself to save others is a bigger achievement.

And why should we be grateful? This is like thanking our government for relieving us from taxes that it imposed in the first place. It makes no sense to be grateful. This reminds me of 1984 by Orson Wells, where the proles would be grateful to Big Brother for lengthening the chocolate ration a little bit, where Big Brother was the one who shortened it in the first place.

In summation, none of this adds up to what Christians around where I live stock it up to be.

i am no theologian. one of those could answer these Q's a lot better than i can, but i'll give it my best shot

the "big deal" comes in the fact that Jesus who was perfect and sinless - became imperfect and sinful when he took the sin debt upon his shoulders.

when Jesus prayed to God: "Please show me another way" He did not mean:

[Wolf]

Well, Acriku, I would argue that the Christian conception of Jesus' death may be even darker.

Let us assume now that it was not Jesus who died, but God who died. What would you say, then, if God died to preserve the eternal happiness of humanity? Let us be very Nietzschian about this, we are talking about God sacrificing himself, not a human form, or a single part, the whole shebang.

Would that change anything?

***

Modification: I just thought of an objection to my own comment. I guess, without God, the Christian view of the world would be meaningless. So, God could not have died...

(sigh)

And I thought I was so smart, too...

[GUNWOUNDS]

Making a human version of himself and then killing it off is not a big achievement.

Until you have been flogged till there isnt any meat left on your back.....until you have been so scared that you sweated blood....until you have been nailed to a cross..... until you have been betrayed by those who pledged their loyalty to you....until you have been mocked by all whom you are sacrifcing yourself for......until you have had a spear shoved into your side...until you have been left for dead...... until you have been thru that gauntlet of misery.... i doubt you can seriously make such an arrogant statement....

Especially ....ALL THE WHILE  there is legion upon legion of angels at your command weeping and awaiting orders to free you from this misery as they themselves do not understand what is happening..

YET you do not call upon them or to save you.....or use your own divine powers to save yourself.

What man could pass this test???  Not I..... i would have called upon the legion of angels to save me before  one-tenth of that stuff happened to me.

Actually  Acriku .. the opposite of what you said is true...

it is nothing for a regular man to be killed off like that.. as he is powerless and has no chance to save himself.... what could a mere man do to stop roman guards from crucifing him??... nothing... whether he tried to fight or not is not the point... if they decreed he was gonna die.. he was gonna die.....

On the other hand a man with divine powers such as jesus.. allowing himself to be shackled and carried away when he could have called upon fire from heaven to turn them into french toast.... that says alot. Because he could have actually stopped this from happening.. while a regular man could not have.....also he didnt have to do this.... he could have stayed up in heaven relaxing... but instead lowered himself to our level and let himself be tortured and killed..... how you say it isnt a big deal ... is beyond me.

[Wolf]

Perhaps the crucifixtion was a means through which God undertook the responsibility of being the warden of mankind. Please, look for the deeper shade to meaning of the statement. He needed to give himself the jurisdiction, the authority, to do what he did. Before the crucifixtion, he is God, and we are man. Totally separate. Only once he had been one of them, died as one of them, been through the receiving end of their cruelty, brutality, hatred, and shame, only after being physically and spiritually tortured, could he really claim to be the protector of human happiness. I suppose that would make sense, and would give him a real motivation to see that bad things don't happen.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Well, Acriku, I would argue that the Christian conception of Jesus' death may be even darker.

Let us assume now that it was not Jesus who died, but God who died. What would you say, then, if God died to preserve the eternal happiness of humanity? Let us be very Nietzschian about this, we are talking about God sacrificing himself, not a human form, or a single part, the whole shebang.

Would that change anything?

***

Modification: I just thought of an objection to my own comment. I guess, without God, the Christian view of the world would be meaningless. So, God could not have died...

(sigh)

And I thought I was so smart, too...

and add to the fact that you totally left out the resurrection part which is what is integral..... the resurrection shows us that there is life after death and that god still lives.

[Caid Ivik]

When you write a book, don't you want to be a part of the world you have created for some time? If this world would be real, people in it may not know why they are going to such end. Maybe this led God to partially infestate in this world as Jesus. He wanted to teach us as much as He could, but also to take experience of life. Including death.

[SurlyPIG]

Personally I find the whole idea nonsensical.

[Caid Ivik]

Salvation is one thing, but another is holiness. Salvation is for all, however Jesus told us, that we are made for more. You know, why stand on grade 6 when you can be 1...

[SurlyPIG]

So the Jews were denied 'holiness' for thousands of years simply because they had no means to attain it.

Wow.  That's really fair, especially considering it's supposedly for eternity.

[Caid Ivik]

Well, talmudists were saying same in this, so I can't say that Jews lose something. Talmud was a book created as a reaction on New Testament's success. And you see, it is there even written, that it was an error to fully disagree with Jesus.

[TMA_1]

This is what I dont understand. People are satisfied with religion that explains everything, and usually in odd ways, but the beauty of christianity is the mystery. There are so many things we can understand, but cant fully comprehend.

The humiliation of the son is one of them. He embodied himself as god/man, with no diminishing of either (like fifty percent god and fifty percent man, didnt work that way). He then out of passion took the sins from man so they could be saved. It is indeed confusinng, especially to those who dont want to understand, which there are many of you out there.

It is a mystery, but we do know that it happened to us christians, or most of us. We believe that christ was both god and man and died for our sins, and was resurrected three days later. The beauty of it is we dont deserve it, but out of a love we cant comprehend, God did it for humanity. It is one of the mysteries.

same with the trinity and so forth. I like it that I cant comprehend everything, that things are still mysteries, and will always be. We are human after all, and we are limited in our perception. I understand it is confusing, but it is the beauty of christianity that we cant always fully understand, we just have to take that leap of faith and believe.

[Navaros]

So the Jews were denied 'holiness' for thousands of years simply because they had no means to attain it.

Wow.

[Caid Ivik]

Schopenhauer calls this "moral materialism"  ;D

[Acriku]

Until you have been flogged till there isnt any meat left on your back.....until you have been so scared that you sweated blood....until you have been nailed to a cross..... until you have been betrayed by those who pledged their loyalty to you....until you have been mocked by all whom you are sacrifcing yourself for......until you have had a spear shoved into your side...until you have been left for dead...... until you have been thru that gauntlet of misery.... i doubt you can seriously make such an arrogant statement....

Earth to GUNWOUNDS, Jesus wasn't the first man to be crucified! He wasn't the last one, either! It's absolutely no big achievement. And your entire dramatic scene is meaningless because Jesus is God. No matter what torture Jesus went through, he is God. That should alleviate any sense of remorse for Jesus, if you're sensical.

[Navaros]

Akriku:

as i already said, Jesus' spirtual burden of EVERY MAN'S sin debt was far worse than His physical burden

the achievement of Jesus was bearing the sin debt for every person to ever exist.  Jesus is the ONLY one to ever have done  that.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Earth to GUNWOUNDS, Jesus wasn't the first man to be crucified! He wasn't the last one, either! It's absolutely no big achievement. And your entire dramatic scene is meaningless because Jesus is God. No matter what torture Jesus went through, he is God. That should alleviate any sense of remorse for Jesus, if you're sensical.

your still ignoring the fact that he *voluntarily* went thru with it.

Its like

[Acriku]

And being God, that doesn't come across as a huge achievement. You're suggesting that God has weaknesses?

GUNWOUNDS, so what if he voluntarily went through with it? He's God for crying out loud, he can go through a million years of torture and act as if it didn't happen. Any almighty being can go through a couple days of torture, can't it?