The knowings and Unknowings of our Existence

[Acriku]

Nope, not at all TMA. It was the level I had to take it to just to make you understand. But, if you can't reply back because your position is faulty, then that's fine with me.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Then again if these surreal particles really exist, perhaps that could prove a scientific foundation for the existence of God in a hyper-real and theoretically "omnipresent" realm.

[EWS]

Then again if these surreal particles really exist, perhaps that could prove a scientific foundation for the existence of God in a hyper-real and theoretically "omnipresent" realm.  Thoughts?

Sounds like we are just getting into Plato's theory of Forms here.  Replace God with the Form of the Good!

[filecore]

Sounds like we are just getting into Plato's theory of Forms here.

[EWS]

Religion and God = two different things.  Some say that Chritianity stol Plato's theory of Forms.

[TMA_1]

lol good grief acriku, you dont get it. I am just saying that I have talked with people on your interpritation of athiest. As agnostics believe that there could be a god, but they dont say there isnt as there is not enough information. It is just being safe, and intellectual. You cant be ain agnostic athiest as agnostic literally translates into oyur term ignroance. THis isnt a bad thing, it just means that since for example "I am an agnostic, I am ignorant on the issue and cannot presume to say if there is or isnt a God".

Athiests say that there is no GOd. LIke Amoral, it menas you have no morality, void of morals. You are void of a GOd, you dont believe in a GOd. There is a difference between not believing that a god exists, and saying you cannot presume to say if a god does or does not exist. You are creating a silly paradox to join the two, and are breaking english rules, everybody I have talked to about this thinks your interpritation is silly, and is only your own interpritation. See, you are creating this out of your own interpritation. That is alright, but I am not going to follow your interpritation, when there are much more intelligent and learned people who have already come up with abetter one. I wouldnt suggest fighting against the established opinion on the differences between atheism and agnosticism. Dont make me pull out the dictionary again, because all you will do is say that iti s wrong, and say your opinion is better than those who have degrees in those kinds of fields. I think it is a tad arrogant to presume your opinion is superior to that of others who are learned in their fields. Agnostics presume that they cant decide if there is or istn a god, and therefore say it isnt an issue since there isnt enough information. that is a smart way, yours isnt in my opinion. ANd mixing athiesm and agnosticism just makes it worse.lol

Filecore. sorry for the confusion, didnt mean to brand you with anything. You are right that others might find that another religion fits their viewpoints, that is valid. What I am saying though is I cant stand those that become practicioners of other religions simply because they cant st and christianity, basically spiting it. I think that is silly.

[Acriku]

Athiests say that there is no GOd.

Wrong! What about people[hypothetical situation] who grow up on an isolated island devoid of any religion or god? Are they not atheists? They haven't even thought of a god to exist due to their primitive state of mind, and yet under your definition (which is wrong) they are not atheists! They certainly are not theists, or agnostics, so what are they TMA? They are atheists, and that's all there is to it.

I have a final question for you, TMA. Does an "agnostic" have a belief in any god in his/her head?

[Warskum]

Wrong! What about people[hypothetical situation] who grow up on an isolated island devoid of any religion or god? Are they not atheists? They haven't even thought of a god to exist due to their primitive state of mind, and yet under your definition (which is wrong) they are not atheists! They certainly are not theists, or agnostics, so what are they TMA? They are atheists, and that's all there is to it.

I have a final question for you, TMA. Does an "agnostic" have a belief in any god in his/her head?

I think a atheist is someone who knows what a God is but does not believe in a God.

Theist is some1 who believes in a God A(nti-)theist is some1 who thinks a theist is wrong so if the peaple on that island dont know what the word God means then they are not atheists not theists and they alos arent agnostics.

An agnostic isnt sure if there is a God, but HE DOES NOT THINK A THEIST IS WRONG, he just isnt sure, he thinks there is a possiblty that there is a God.(thats what the book says). So an agnostic is closer to a theist than to an atheist.

[TMA_1]

usually those that are isolated, studies have been made on thsoe people by the way, have made up their own religion. Only the learned people usually are agnostics or athiests. But those who are so isolated as not to have a culture or anything, and revert to an animal-lke state are ignorant. Not in a negative term, but in a sense not knowing to all things. They are ignorant, and agnostic comes from the term to not know, or be ingornat. They are agnostics in the truest sense of the word. They do not choose to disbelieve, they are ignorant of even an idea of a God. There are those that choose agnosticism though, which is different from pure agnositicism. CHoosing is saying that I do not have the information to say that there is or isnt a God.

there is a pure agnositicism, which comes from pure ignorance of culture, morals, virtues, beliefs. This is rare and usually comes from ferral-type people.

Usually those who have been studied who are so backward and have seperated ties with other cultures usually set up their own culture with religion, and are usually pantheists, which is not agnosticism or atheism.

you then have chosen agnosicism, which comes from the opinion usually studied that we dont have the facts to say that there is or isnt a God, which is not choosing to believe there is no god

that is atheism. you are an atheist. unless you admit to the fact that you dont have enough information to say that there is or isnt a god.

generally atheism a a bit more egotistical, as you have to choose out of your limited beliefs that there is no God, by doing so though you destroy any choice or option to change your mind, which is what any good reasonable person would do. Agnosicism is that choice I believe.

a true agnostic does not "think there is a possibility there is a god". He or she just says that there could be a god, and there might not be. It is complete neutrality. Stop putting your opinion into the facts. It isnt either or, it is middle ground. YOur almost too biased to talk to man.

[Acriku]

Warskum, you have made absolutely no sense. The people on the island have to be atheists, because as the word atheist states: they are without a belief in a god. And no, a in atheist does not stand for anti-, it's a prefix of its own. When you see try to define anonymous, do you say "against a name" or "without a name"? I'm trying to illustrate the usage of the prefix, "a." It means without. Theos, means god. So, we can define atheism as state of being without a god, or without the belief in a god. You're requiring an atheist to be a person who actively thinks that there is no god. In essence, you're saying that an atheist knows that there is no god. Which is in fact what is called gnostic atheism.

Also, in what part of the word "atheism" does it say that it requires knowing what a god is? You're adding to the definition, when it shouldn't be there at all.

Root or Prefix Meaning Examples

a, an         not, without   atheist, anarchy, anonymous apathy, aphasia, anemia

From http://www.virtualsalt.com/roots.htm

TMA, you're last post just iterated what you've been saying all along, which is downright wrong. Agnosticism/gnosticism is not a middle ground. It is not an alternative to atheism/theism. Saying that you do not know does not answer the question: do you believe in a god. It is just another attribute to add on to your label if you desire.

You either have a belief in a god or you do not. You either think you know or you don't. Put them together, and you can be a gnostic theist, gnostic atheist, agnostic theist, or agnostic atheist. I don't understand what is so difficult about that. It's basic English, using prefixes and suffixes.

Now answer my question, TMA. Does an agnostic as you describe have a belief of a god in their mind?

[TMA_1]

yeah, it literally means without God. YOu remove God from your beliefs, you dont believe in a God. That is what without God means. That entire post was kinda pointless acriku.lol

Also being without a belief in a deity has to come from a volitional choice not to believe in a God. WIthout belief in a god takes an opinion.

Those fictional people you are talking about though are ignorant, and have no idea what a GOd is, they are ignorant. THe word agnostic means ignorant, which is what those people are. Acriku there is a difference between choosing not to have God, and to be ignorant of the entire issue. That is why atheism is a choice, and agnosticism is or isnt. The way you make it, there is no agnosticism, you just take it out of the spectrum. We dont go by your warped standards acriku, there is a bit or arrogance in presuming to do that.

[Acriku]

yeah, it literally means without God. YOu remove God from your beliefs, you dont believe in a God. That is what without God means. That entire post was kinda pointless acriku.lol

Not when people like Warskum and yourself are putting more than that into the definition.

Also being without a belief in a deity has to come from a volitional choice not to believe in a God. WIthout belief in a god takes an opinion.

No it doesn't. I'd like to hear your reasoning from this.

Those fictional people you are talking about though are ignorant, and have no idea what a GOd is, they are ignorant. THe word agnostic means ignorant, which is what those people are. Acriku there is a difference between choosing not to have God, and to be ignorant of the entire issue. That is why atheism is a choice, and agnosticism is or isnt. The way you make it, there is no agnosticism, you just take it out of the spectrum. We dont go by your warped standards acriku, there is a bit or arrogance in presuming to do that.

Exactly why they are called agnostic atheists. They have no belief in a god, and at the same time they don't know. And I am not saying that there is no agnosticism, of course there is - I said I was one myself! For you to miss that would mean you're skipping over large parts of my posts. I am only saying that that does not answer the question: do you believe in a god.

Now answer my question, TMA. Does an agnostic as you describe have a belief of a god in their mind?

[TMA_1]

they dont have enough information to say that there is or isnt a god.

you are creating a paradox in saying you are an agnostic atheist! lol YOu are saying you chose not to believein a god, yet you dont have enoguh information to beleive or not believe ina god. You have to be one of the three. you cant be an agnostic athiest. What you are doing now is playing semantics, and it is silly. good gravy

[Acriku]

It is not a paradox at all, TMA. I don't have enough knowledge to know for sure either way, which is why I'm not a theist - so by default I am an atheist. You're distorted definitions are blocking you from understanding this TMA. Perhaps someone else can say it more clearly?

[GUNWOUNDS]

Wrong! What about people[hypothetical situation] who grow up on an isolated island devoid of any religion or god? Are they not atheists? They haven't even thought of a god to exist due to their primitive state of mind, and yet under your definition (which is wrong) they are not atheists! They certainly are not theists, or agnostics, so what are they TMA? They are atheists, and that's all there is to it.

where did you get this example??

How would a group of

[GUNWOUNDS]

It is not a paradox at all, TMA. I don't have enough knowledge to know for sure either way, which is why I'm not a theist - so by default I am an atheist. You're distorted definitions are blocking you from understanding this TMA. Perhaps someone else can say it more clearly?

OK lemme review this so i can get it straight in my head...

__________________________________________________________

A Theist would say

[filecore]

An Atheist is the opposite of a Theist

Is this actually true?  Where does the definition come from?  In linguistic terms, isn't athiest derived from the same method by which we get the terms, for example, moral, amoral and immoral - in which case, is athiest actually the opposite of theist?

Of course, in conceptual terms it can be argued that an athiest is an anti-theist, but then the terms are worked out so that *, a*, and im* are therefore theist, agnostic and athiest, in which case I have drivelled on for the last few minutes to absolutely no point whatsoever.  Maybe I should just not post this message at all :P

Note*- TMA i just thought of this...

[TMA_1]

well in many christian beliefs, like mine, all will be judged, and those that dont believe go to hell. I mean I cant deny this belief, as it is written in the bible and I take it literally.

acriku, you have made up your mind so whats the point in playing semantics with you? it is just silly.

[Acriku]

where did you get this example??

How would a group of  primitive island people be atheists??... if anything ... looking back on history..... primitive people worship animals, rocks, trees, bodies of water, the moon, lightening, the sun, and spanish conquistadors riding on horseback ...as Gods......

This is the most ignorant strawman I have ever read. Worth my time, actually. I guess hypothetical went way over your head, GUNWOUNDS?

An Atheist is the opposite of a Theist so he must say

-that there is no God

I did not say this. You're putting words into my mouth to construe my argument into something that it isn't. So your argument is invalid. If you've been following along with my mind-numbing conversation with TMA you will find that an atheist can be someone who says that there is no god, but by the meaning of the word atheist it is simply someone who lacks a belief in a god. Whether they say there is none or not, they lack a belief in a god.

TMA, of course I have made up my mind. This particular discussion isn't up for grabs, you're wrong and I'm trying to tell you that. You're trying to tell me what I am, when I'm trying to tell you what I am. Who do you think has some authority here TMA? And it may be semantics, but it is very relevant to any discussion henceforth concerning atheism or theism, and to people's view on atheism.

Are you ever going to answer my question? I've stated it more than enough times to excuse the chance of you missing it.

[nemafakei]

Ok, let's clear a few things up!

Theist: Someone who is at least fairly sure that one or more gods exist.

::θεος/theos - god

[GUNWOUNDS]

This is the most ignorant strawman I have ever read. Worth my time, actually. I guess hypothetical went way over your head, GUNWOUNDS?

fine if you want me to play along with your story.... i will... but you should know the answer to your question acriku..... since i am sure you have heard of the "pygmy" example people always bring up in one of these conversations....

God wouldnt damn those people for being atheists... he would only damn them if they knowingly rejected the idea of Jehovah God... People who have never heard of Jehovah God and are completely ignorant of him ... are judged by how well they followed whatever beliefs in their own life.

Unfortunately everyone on this forum has heard of Jehovah and thus are not able to be part of the exempt clause.

So i stand by my previous point that your example was faulty.. strawman or not.

[TMA_1]

hmm yup nema, you cleared it up.hehe

by the way you never responded to the post, you going on msn? you needed to say something.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Ok, let's clear a few things up!

Theist: Someone who is at least fairly sure that one or more gods exist.

::θεος/theos - god

[Filo]

If I got all, all the people who lived before the bible (written by Jews), and all the people who were unluckly not informed of its existence (by conquistadors or other kind of colonizing christians), and all the atheists, and EVEN agnostics (aow, it's my turn! I believed I wasn't in that number) go to HELL?

One billion Chineses, one billion Hindus make such a great mistake, because they didn't understand that ONLY Christians are on the right way... What a pity.

[Acriku]

So Nema, what would you call a person who doesn't know that there is a god or not, but at the same time does not believe in a god? Surely you understand that gnosticism and the lack thereof is a different category to label people from theism and the lack thereof? In this case, one of both categories can be labeled onto a person.

GUNWOUNDS:

God wouldnt damn those people for being atheists... he would only damn them if they knowingly rejected the idea of Jehovah God... People who have never heard of Jehovah God and are completely ignorant of him ... are judged by how well they followed whatever beliefs in their own life.

I wasn't talking arguing about damnation, so you're bringing up another strawman.