Journey Towards Creation

[TMA_1]

The subject title is actually the title of a DVD I baught. I usually dispise christian scientific research, as it seems really silly to fuse science with the faith of the bible, but this one guy who did it really made me think.

His name is Hugh Ross PHD. He is an astronomer, and a pretty respected one at that. What I find interesting is that he holds to the newest finds in astronomical chronology. THat the universe is some 13 billion years old. He goes into some of the details of how the universe works in the basics. He shows how hard life is to start in the universe, taking a standpoint of good science, without interfering with the young earth idea.

He has convinced me that the young earth idea is silly. He goes into the basics of the solar system, to nebula and stars, to galaxies and quasars. All that kind of stuff. It is hard to go into details as I dont have mcuh time, but it was so fascinating to see a fresh viewpoint of science from a guy that is a real christian, and scientist. He goes into so many arguments that show life has to be something more than just an accident. He shows over 200 reasons why this is so remote. It reminds me of a book called Rare Earth, written by a reputable scientist who is by the way an athiest.

Have any of you heard of this guy? if not then I suggest checking it out. He doesnt believe in biological evolution, but he does believe in the old state of earth and the universe. It may seem silly, but please dont take a biased view towards it and check the guy out.

Ill post some more info from the DVD to show you what kind of stuff he says, till then tell me if you guys have heard of him or not.

By the way not trying to create a flame war or argue that I am right or wrong on this issue. I believe personally though that this guy has shown me the universe really is ancient, and I mean ancient. Still though that it is all apart of the plan of GOd, he shows it wonderfully.

[Acriku]

The interesting question is: why did it have to take a Christian to convince you?

[TMA_1]

because for a long time I thought (silly as this sounds) that the bible couldnt be reconciled to it. I realized though with my own studies of the first verse of genesis and isaiah, jeremiah and others that the creation of the universe and the six days of restoration allow a time period, of possibly billions of years. That the six days were of restoration and creation of man and new animals for earth.

For a christian and reputable scientist to say this, as well as my dad agreeing as well and showing me scriptures that show you dont have to compremise and say things are allegory, it really helped me out.

that is honestly why, good question.

[Egeides]

I see no contradiction between the MESSAGE of the Bible and science. But I don't believe that while ALL other books were within litterary genres, exagerations and so on, the Bible is for some reason exempt from all this that affected all other ancient books. I see no need to take the Bible litterally, no need to have miracles to agree with the Bible's message (I don't bother alot about miracles) and see the Old Testament as I see very valuable books such as Suetonus or Pline, except that in this case it's about Christianity (which adds some aspects).

And I don't know a thing about this guy but I could hardly rent/find his DVD :-

But I DID found an interesting website (his) even though I wont check it right now:

www.reasons.org

[thomas]

yes I've heard of him.

TMA have you read any of his books? he has 5 working on his sixth

[TMA_1]

no never heard of the books, they any good? I have heard of one about how aliens couldnt really exist, and how most sightings are phoney, but those that are real are a bit hinky.

anyways what are they like? any info?

[thomas]

here's a link to one of them:

http://www.bookshare.org/web/BooksByAuthor.html?author_id=1399

[Edric O]

An obvious question arises: Did God create life on any other planets except Earth? And if not, then isn't the vastness of the Universe God's way of telling us to leave the confines of our homeworld and begin spreading life rather than destroying it?

[Acriku]

That's a very interesting question, Edric. I never thought of it that way before. Thanks :)

[TMA_1]

hmm, I dont think so edric, but a neat idea.

[filecore]

I see no contradiction between the MESSAGE of the Bible and science

That's exactly what my girlfriend (a radiochemist and a christian) says - as a scientist she argues that of course it can't be literally true, but as a christian she says that it is the message which is important, not the literal fine details.  Anyway back on topic... thanks for the post, I will also have a look around for this DVD, it sounds really interesting :)

[filecore]

An obvious question arises: Did God create life on any other planets except Earth? And if not, then isn't the vastness of the Universe God's way of telling us to leave the confines of our homeworld and begin spreading life rather than destroying it?

Hmm, perhaps not necessarily telling us to leave our homeworld, but maybe as a way of pointing out that if we are indeed the only life in the universe (but I'm with Arthur C Clark on this one, go Europa) then maybe it's a warning - intelligent life has been given a chance to exist and if we stuff it up, we don't get another chance :) and then, looking at the world around me, that's sometimes quite a scary thought...

[Caid Ivik]

Well, what we need for life? I would say if there is some self-sustained cycle of chemical reactions, we can't call it a true life. True life must have control over itself, a sense, some positive evolution, last for long time, harmony with lower forms and enviroment, own will, rational view, intelligence, also it should know these things itself. Be a God's sign. In short...

[filecore]

True life must have control over itself, a sense, some positive evolution, last for long time, harmony with lower forms and enviroment, own will, rational view, intelligence, also it should know these things itself

Well by those criteria, we don't yet count as true life either  ;) particularly the "harmony with lower forms and enviroment" and "rational view" bits... but anyway if you take the scientific consensus, we evolved from pond scum (not very far apparently), so why can't self-sustaining amoebic chains in the oceans of Europa also potentially do the same?  Maybe not on our short and egocentric timescale, but maybe one day after we've annhilated ourselves totally, they will evolve into the next advanced, intelligent creature in the universe.

Just because it's not NOW, doesn't rule it out altogether.

[Caid Ivik]

Show me one another kind on this earth, which possesses these characteristics, and I'll agree with you. They had four billion years, if we can believe geology. Enough time to born a whole star.

[Acriku]

Since when is there a timelimit for life to begin? Maybe the odds were against it the whole time, or other factors delayed it further. Who knows.

[Caid Ivik]

What is time? We are the only beings which know the term "time". Maybe it flows with our consciousness. If there is no human or other form of mind capable of understanding it, there is also no time. Everything gives a clue that universe is homocentric.

[Acriku]

That has the same absurdity of the question "Does a tree make a sound when it falls if no one is there to hear it?" Time is independently existing of ourselves. Measures of time is what we create. If we didn't exist, there would still be change, still be before and after, and still be time. This is true whether or not time is understood by anyone else.

What an ego man has to think time is dependent on his existence.

[Caid Ivik]

Change exists as well. I did not want to sound berkeleystically, but it is true. Without defining a time, what only humans did, nothing can say there is something "before" or "after". Time is a relative thing, physicians declare that various states of matter exist in various flow of time. What we call a "time", flow of changes, is only time flow seen in our eyes.

[Acriku]

Well, I agree there, I was just saying that things won't cease to change if we cease to exist.

[Caid Ivik]

Except our thoughts. Ie if there would be the end now, this post would lose its sense...

[TMA_1]

why did you show the sepiroth caid?lol I honestly dont understand where you are going with that and the chronology of this universe.

and I tend to agree more with acriku on this one. I think these pseudo philisophical questions go a bit too far.lol

[Caid Ivik]

Tree of sephirot is the definition of life. True life, not only that closed circle of evolution named "nature". But of course, it is more mysticist thing than philosophic, tough what else than mysticism is made to go too far an this... It's just a view on thing.

[TMA_1]

ahh okay, I was wondering because I didnt think you are a kabalist. Though it would be interesting because then I could ask you some questions on the beliefs.

[Caid Ivik]

As you wish...