Leto II

[TMA_1]

For strange reasons, I love Leto II. The deepest character in Science Fiction I think. He was indeed evil, people say that he was trying to save the universe and that he had to resort to the measures he did, and frankly that is all true. He had to be evil to do good. The end justified the means. One shouldnt forget what he did though, and why for good measure he was so dispised. Still though, for all the imperfections he had, he did what paul did not. He had to do the great evils, he loved humanity so, that he would cripple it so that there would be strength in the end. That evil was a sacrifice, and he knew that the evil he gave would be his doom, and would be his hell, trapped in semi sentience the rest of his immortal life. It is so sad but in a strange way so nobel. It is like a child brought up in near death situations. The father has to be cruel many times, and the child does not understand why till he or she matures, and that can take awhile. When they do understand why though, they see the grace and love in each cruel move they had to make, and there a paradox is created. Love through torture.

Good grief! amazing stuff.lol what do you guys think?

[Mahdi]

I dunno about that part "did what Paul did not." I always saw it as differeing visions and training. Paul didn't beleive humanity would survive the typhoon struggle, and that takign that path meant mankinds death, while Leto thoguht they could survive it, and that not takign it meant mankinds death.

This opinion is formed through both the details of Pauls life, how everythign about him existed only to end stagnation, and the conversation between Paul and Leto when they first meet in the desert.

[TMA_1]

hmm you have said this before, and I thought about it for a few minutes. I see what you mean, the fact that they were in two totally different positions. Paul was not pure fremen per ce. He became a fremen, and a true one at that, but was still an offworlder in a sense. Also he still had nobel and regal tendancies. He also did not know the future like Leto II his son did. Paul seemed to have known that it wasent his time, that there was something blocking him from taking the final step. I dont know if that makes much sence, but basically I see waht you are saying.

[NHJ BV]

I don't think he was that evil after all. He indeed saved humanity and he sometimes had to weed some elements out of society.

[Andrew]

Yep, LetoII was a good guy, even if he did repress his people. (which somehow will or did save them)

GEOD spoiler:

[hide]I am always saddened when I read the part when LetoII and Hwi die.[/hide]

[Vanguard3000]

Yes, I've always thought of Leto as a great martyr of sorts. Not because of his death, but because of the living death he had to endure for thirty-five centuries, as well as the countless lives that were lost by his hand (i.e. the Fish Speakers). But in the end, he undoubtedly saved humanity.

[TMA_1]

I never said he didnt save humanity. That is what he had to do and did well. To say that he did it justly and morally is a huge lie and a great mistake to make. Do we have to do bad things in order to achieve the greater good? yes, many times. That is what I am getting at. Dont let sentiments get in the way. That is why Dune and it's series are so great. To really get the full feel for it, you have to at least like history a bit in my opinion. As a history fan, I am always out to look for the truth behind things. There is much truth in the anathematizing of Leto II. Most of you duniverse posters know by now that Leto II is my favorite character, and that he did do a wonderful thing, but he did it through murder, coveting, complete malice of thought at times, and a rather arrogant position around other groups in the universe. How can you tell the universe is inherently evil? You can tell by the leadership. They have to do evil things at times in order to combat evil.

you guys are right and wrong at the same time. He is a tragic figure, one that loved humanity so much, that he sacrificed his humanity, and in doing so he had to resort to animal measures. Dont take away the depth of Leto's character by coulding yourself with sentiments. He was not the typical flawless hero, and that is what I love about him, the ultimate tragedy. Hope you guys understand what I mean.

He was very evil at time, killing possibly billions in his 3000 or so year rule, coveting spice in order to drain people from it. This was all needed though. They needed to hate leto so much, hate autocracy so much, that they would spread out in a new and ultimately powerful form of independance. He put people down to elevate humanity to heights that would be impossible in any other way. That is the paradox I mention.

I suggest thinking of a greek comedy when thinking of leto, sure it is a huge tragedy and might even be catagorized better there, but I look at it more as a comedy in the greek fashion. They usually centered around irony, as many of you know, and Leto II carried with him a life that is probably one of the most ironic in any sci fi book. Think of it, technically one of the most evil creatures to exist, doing the greatest thing any creature has ever done for humanity.

[Andrew]

I thought most heroes had flaws in Dune. Also most characters had tragedies. (I have an article on the heroes of Dune...or I did, unless I'm thinking of

O'Reilly, Timothy. Frank Herbert. Frederick Ungar Publishing Co., Inc. 1981. OR

Touponce, William F. Frank Herbert. Boston: Twayne Publishers, 1988.

portions of heroes.. :- [or maybe portions in article deal with heroes. Now I'm lost.])

err, Maybe I should reread some articles. ;)

[TMA_1]

hehehe, andrew... you so qwaizae. :D

got that from simpsons. ;)

[mattvs]

currently reading the series a 2nd time through and coincidentally im reading GEOD right now. Something for my own personal clarification though....the Typhoon Struggle, Kralizec, that is mentioned in the last sections of CoD...

the Fremen believe its the final war at the end of the universe.

But from what I've read in this thread, is the Typhoon Struggle Leto II's enforced tranquility? or is he just preparing them for it.

I remember a part where Leto v2.0 says that there will be wars after he goes back into the sand...

This has been confusing me for a bit, heh.