anti-fascism.org

[Tio_Holtzmann]

yeah but people are going to automatically associate fascism with the swastika anyway. doesnt really matter wat it stands for in reality, lke words which colloquially have a different meaning from their actual one. altho seeing as the swastika actually WAS associated with fascism, i dont know what some ppls problem is.

[Edric O]

First I don't know why is there a sign of hakenkreuz and not also i.e.red star. USSR was same as Grossdeutscher Reich, difference is only that nazists preferred Jews and soviets intellectuals as victims.

Because the site is anti-fascism.org, not anti-stalinism.org. And because it would be an insult to all communists, socialists, trade unionists and ordinary workers who have used the red star as their symbol for almost 150 years, and who do not wish to be associated with Stalin and his band of traitors.

And I see from an earlier post of yours that you still refuse to acknowledge the difference between socialism/communism and stalinism (i.e. the fact that socialism and communism are democratic systems in which all power is ultimately held by the people, while stalinism was a thinly veiled elitist dictatorship), but this is not the place to discuss it.

Stalinism is dead. Fascism, on the other hand, has begun to rise again in the past few years. That is what makes it dangerous. Of course, it's not the same fascism as that of Hitler and Mussolini. It's an "upgraded", modern version, complete with all-new propaganda. Modern fascists hardly ever talk about nationality any more. They talk about race. In this respect they are far closer to Hitler than to Mussolini.

Fascism is an ultra-conservative reaction to social change. Whenever the social status quo is under threat, fascists will rise in a futile attempt to defend it. In the 20's and 30's, fascism appeared as a reaction to the collapse of the old laissez-faire capitalism and the rise of socialism. Now it appears again, as a reaction to racial equality and the blurring of national boundaries. As usual, they are fighting against the inevitable.

[Dude_Doc]

And because it would be an insult to all communists, socialists, trade unionists and ordinary workers who have used the red star as their symbol for almost 150 years, and who do not wish to be associated with Stalin and his band of traitors.

Oh, only 150 years? Think of all the spiritual people who used, and still use, the swatstika as a holy symbol. Within 20 years, that sign was not only the most known, but also the most hated symbol. ;)

[Edric O]

Oh, only 150 years? Think of all the spiritual people who used, and still use, the swatstika as a holy symbol. Within 20 years, that sign was not only the most known, but also the most hated symbol. ;)

Good point. However, there is a difference between the nazi swastika and the religious one. The religious swastika sits upright, while the nazi symbol is tilted by 45 degrees.

[nemafakei]

The 2000-year-old Etruscan Nazi sculpture!

(now this WOULD BE taking it out of context)[attachment archived by Gobalopper]

[Edric O]

The swastika is a very simple geometric shape, and has been used by many cultures to represent many different things. It seems the nazis didn't have enough imagination to create their own symbol, so they stole one from other people...

[Caid Ivik]

Don't forget that nazistic lords were very influented by ancient nordic mysticism. Neopaganism was a fashion in those time.

[Edric O]

Exactly. The best example is the symbol of the SS, which is a double "sig" rune.

[Acriku]

The swastika is a very simple geometric shape, and has been used by many cultures to represent many different things. It seems the nazis didn't have enough imagination to create their own symbol, so they stole one from other people...

Heh, that's an exact parellel to christianity. But I'll stop there. ;)

[Edric O]

Heh, that's an exact parellel to christianity. But I'll stop there. ;)

Wrong. There is no such thing as "copyright" on religious symbols. Just because one religion uses symbol X, that doesn't mean that everyone else who later uses the same symbol must have stole it from them.

The nazis were proud of stealing other people's symbols, and we know for certain how they got the swastika. When it comes to ancient religions, however, we have NO IDEA where they got their symbols from, or whether or not they took inspiration from each other. Any assumption is just that: an assumption.

[Caid Ivik]

Nazism is heavily influented by neopagan wave - I would say it was its largest propagator. Swastika was a new cross, which really twisted the Second Empire's teutonic cross symbolising more gothic era, when german empire turned to decay, back to ancient times of Roman Empire, when they - as Himmler thought - controlled whole european north.

[Acriku]

Heh, that's an exact parellel to christianity. But I'll stop there. ;)

Wrong. There is no such thing as "copyright" on religious symbols. Just because one religion uses symbol X, that doesn't mean that everyone else who later uses the same symbol must have stole it from them.

Who cares about copyright? That's irrelevant. What the fathers of christianity did, was steal a symbol from a pagan religion. They stole many other things as well. You cannot negate this without looking foolish.

The nazis were proud of stealing other people's symbols, and we know for certain how they got the swastika. When it comes to ancient religions, however, we have NO IDEA where they got their symbols from, or whether or not they took inspiration from each other. Any assumption is just that: an assumption.

We know Christianity uses a stolen symbol, its history shows it. A pagan religion that was here before Christianity used the symbol that Christianity stole. It needed to steal things to appeal to more people, and gain more popularity.

[Tio_Holtzmann]

acriku, mind actually saying which symbol xianity stole, cos the cross is an execution method and thats why its carried, regardless of pagans who might or might not have worn it. i cant think of any other major xian symbols

[Acriku]

The cross, and the fish are the two major ones that I can think of right now.

[ordos45]

The cross, the fish, at one time the Pentagram...you can still find some older Churches with it, but any more they tend to view it as an evil symbol. Another symbol, is an upside down cross, and once in a while there's the cross of St Andrew (a third type of cross).

About Naziism and Neo Paganism and such. Its really weird to see those documentaries on the occult and the Third Reich, only to be followed with a quote about Hitler saying he was "Doing the Lord's work"...

[Tio_Holtzmann]

i just dont see how that is "stealing" a symbol. i dont pretend that jesus was the first or last or only person crucified, i know there were countless others, the reason why it's been adopted is cos it was how xianity's central figure was put to death. if jesus was around today, twould be an electric chair or something.

the fish was used because in greek its spelt ICHTHUS, which was a little acronym which stood for Iesous Christos THeou Uios Soter, which stood for Jesus Christ Son of God, Saviour. twas used as a secret signal when the early church was under attack.

and anyway, surely what it counts is what it stands for for xianity, not what it may or may not have been in the past? and what is so bad about using the familiar to get more people interested in religion, every religion does that. altho i spose in the early days the fish woulda been confusing if some pagans saw it!

[Acriku]

The acronym was found after-the-fact, after other religions used them to represent fertility. Christianity stole other things as well, such as Christmas. After studying a bit about it, Christianity becomes more the 'melting pot' of religions. I have been using 'stole' because it's been said that the nazis 'stole' the swastika. And they did, as did Christians of other symbols, etc.

Is it a bad thing? That's up to you. I think it's pretty weak that a religion will incorporate symbols and holidays into itself just to compete with other religions. But, I should stop because this is way offtopic.

[Caid Ivik]

Well, Jesus was executed by cross-hanging, what he compared to Moises' copper snake, as a sign, on which who will look, will live. Christianity does not bow to cross: you look on tree and miss the forest. Not that cross is our symbol, it is that Jesus dying for our sins. "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up" - Jn 3,14

About fishes it is also specifical. Most of his first apostles were fishermen before, and when Jesus met them, he called them: "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men" - Mt 4,19

[Acriku]

Heh, ever heard of Catholicism Caid? They worship the cross, Mary, the Saints, who knows what else.

Caid, that's a very vague description of how the fish symbol came to christianity. Especially when the actual symbol was copied, not just the 'type.'

[Caid Ivik]

As a catholic, I think I know better what I do worship. I worship God with his son-like presence of Jesus. Between else also for his sacrifice, which brings us to cross. But the cross thing itself, without corpus christi, is just a plain wood without meaning. St Mary and other saints are also only honored, not worshipped.

About that fish I still don't know what it did copy. Bible is Bible, it was all we could base something on.

[Acriku]

Take a look at the symbol, and you will see.

Also, there is no difference between Catholic's overly-honoring Mary and the saints and worshipping them.

[Tio_Holtzmann]

i think a catholic would be the one to know the difference, dont go down this road ppl, i have seen what this can do....

maybe the early xians needed to disguise themselves as pagans to avoid suspicion and just rely on word of mouth to spread about?

ok, maybe it isnt the best idea in the world, but xianity always tried to explain itself using the familiar <ie parables symbols etc>, why invent a confusing new religious symbol like a custard pie or spiro agnew or something?

just because the pagans made it first makes xianity seem feeble, well xianity seems to have outlived those pagans anyway....so maybe thats what counts?

[Acriku]

i think a catholic would be the one to know the difference, dont go down this road ppl, i have seen what this can do....

He has no authority over anybody on what worshipping means.

maybe the early xians needed to disguise themselves as pagans to avoid suspicion and just rely on word of mouth to spread about?

Nice imagination you have there.

ok, maybe it isnt the best idea in the world, but xianity always tried to explain itself using the familiar <ie parables symbols etc>, why invent a confusing new religious symbol like a custard pie or spiro agnew or something?

Since when is a new symbol confusing? That's completely made up.

just because the pagans made it first makes xianity seem feeble, well xianity seems to have outlived those pagans anyway....so maybe thats what counts?

"Those pagans". Wow, you're something. Pagans are anybody not christian, so obviously Christianity did not outlive 'those pagans.' Even so, people continue to practice ancient pagan beliefs and rituals, despite Christians' attempts to flush them out. You're talking of irrelevance, and completely useless garbage. But again, nice imagination.

[Edric O]

First of all, Acriku, I strongly suggest you calm down.

Second of all, I suggest you shake off your Western Europe-centered vision of the world. Christianity did NOT originate in the West. It originated in the East. If the cross and the fish were "stolen" from paganism, then how exactly did they come to be used in Roman provinces where the people never even heard about paganism? When Christianity spread from Palestine to Greece and the Balkans, how did it carry with it symbols and holidays from the other side of the Roman Empire?

Your assumptions are in direct contradiction with historical fact.

And third of all, we really should get back on topic. But you know as well as I do that we're not gonna do that. ;)

[Tio_Holtzmann]

im not saying caid has authority over what worshipping is in general, im saying that as a catholic he should know better than anyone who he worships.

and how would you know that the early church didnt pull a stunt like that? you ever been persecuted to death for what you believe?

if a symbol is new, you have to explain totally what it stands for. like if i just came along and said, here's my new religion, this is my symbol, and its an icosahedron or something, people are gonna be saying WHAT THE HELL IS THAT....not always, but sometimes.

and no, what you were talking about is atheism. that is not what i was talking about. the people that used that symbol originally, whatever became of them is fairly insignificant these days compared to christianity....