tio holtzman and little dwarf

[Duncan_ghola]

i think its stupid that way brian and kevin made tio holtzman appear, as the man he is in the butlerian jihad, which i dont think is correct, besides how could he appear aged if he died at a young age inclosing himself from the outside world untill he invented the holtzman generator? and the way everything was invented in a short period of time.. and whos that stupid dwarf all of a sudden? id be more specific but its been almost a year since i finished that book

[Andrew]

As for tio's representation in butlerian jihad I dont really know much about him before that so i have little idea.

The dwarf may be Norma Cenva?

Spoilers:

[hide]The one who invents stuff?[/hide]

[Duncan_ghola]

of course norma shes the only dwarf in the book but frank herbert mention tio holtzman in one his books im sure, i cant remember which one he mentions tio was extremely intelligent and dedicated, he locked himself up untill he made the holtzman sheild generator and died at an early age of 30 soemthing? this is what i remember.

[Andrew]

both Tio and Norma are mentioned somewhere in the original novels, although to the extent is minimal.

[Duncan_ghola]

norma was mentioned in the original novels? are you sure?

[Andrew]

Possible spoilers for GEoD and Butlerian Jihad below.

GEoD:

"I course backward down the flight of ancestors, hunting along the tributaries, darting into nooks and crannies. You would not recognize many of their names.

Who has ever heard of Norma Cenva? I have lived her!"

"Lived her?" his imaginary visitor asked.

"Of course- Why else would one keep one's ancestors around'' You think a man designed the first Guild ship:' Your history books told you it was Aurelius

Venport? They lied. It was his mistress, Norma. She gave him the design, along with five children. He thought his ego would take no less. In the end. the

knowledge that he had not really fulfilled his own image, that was what destroyed him."

That is one of the references..there may be one or two more.

Interesting as in Butlerian Jihad Aurelius was normas father...I hope they dont get married in the books.(father daughter marriage)

Makes you think if Brain and Kevin actually read the books.

[Duncan_ghola]

wow... so much i missed.. 5 children you say..

[Andrew]

You can learn a lot by rereading the books again. For me reading them the first time was learning characters and plots and what the hell was going on (try reading Heretics Dune before GEoD.)

The second time around I knew what was going on so I was able to learn more stuff.

[Duncan_ghola]

GEoD in my opinion was the one of the best dune books in the series

[Scrinlord]

Ya, I have read the series 3 times now, and I notice new things each time I do

[Tio_Holtzmann]

but cenva was venports daughter? i think BH and KJA have unwittingly created an incest situation here.....

[Scrinlord]

no, I believe that Venport was normas Father, but not her biological father in TBJ.

Zuffa Ceneva had Norma from an earlier mating, then she married Venport. So Venport is Normas dad, but not her biological father. It still does not fit right tho...

[Duncan_ghola]

are you sure hes not the biological father or is that just an assumption?

[Scrinlord]

I am about 80% sure. I believe that in TBJ it mentions that Zuffa had Norma by another man before she met venport

[NHJ BV]

I am about 80% sure. I believe that in TBJ it mentions that Zuffa had Norma by another man before she met venport

Yeah, I remember too...although it's still a bit, well, strange :)

[Colonel_Worf]

Aurelius was Zufa's lover, no relation to Norma.

[Scrinlord]

ok, good, I wa right