DUne warfare

[Scrinlord]

true, but the disadvantage of lesser control. It just seems to me that a group using lances would be too easy to overcome, if only by rushing. If I run at a lance as fast as I can, my shield will protect me, and if I am protected, and I have a sword....

[Caid Ivik]

Hard control of lance is because of weapon's weight. And we can't compare materials of middle ages with duniverse. Even today we have strong plastic materials, which are very light. About running with full speed into a phalanx of pikemen, have you ever thought about psychological effect? Running directly against blade, well...

[Scrinlord]

it is not ONLY because of weight that they are hard to use. rather, it is the weight distribution, and the fact that more energy needs to be expended to move the lance because there is weight farther from the fulcrum of movement. And yes, there would be a phsycological effect, but it could be done.

And BTW, i just finished reading Dune again, and at the end of the book the Fremen are guarding Paul with lances, and it does make referances to people wearing mail armor.

[Caid Ivik]

Ah, yes, I've found it too:

"Straze u vchodu se rozestoupily a vytvorily z kopi kratky pruchod."

After this sentence is many times mentioned a "barrier of lances".

[Duncan_ghola]

oh yeah... the fremen lances that formed a barrier around the delegates so they wouldnt move? i dont think the lances wouldve helped much in defense, unless they were positioned facing the prisoners..

eh i cant think

[Caid Ivik]

They are primarily a weapon of some honor guard. But that act was just after battle, so I think they came with lances just from fight.

[Scrinlord]

ya, thats what I was thinking.

[Duncan_ghola]

A lance? that wont do any good in close combat which everyone at the time fought, a fremen with a lance? I think they took them out of the palace and just made use of them after they took over the palace, i cant see a fremen fighting with a lance over their crysknife.

[Caid Ivik]

Lance could be used by Fremen more than just for battles. I am not sure how would you i.e.hunt down some creatures with a knife.

[exatreide]

I can see it..Thousands of fremen warriers riding ontop of sandworms with 80 foot lances slamming into the sadukar below them....

[Caid Ivik]

Maybe that was because they won. Sardaukars had laserguns and swords, in storm they were unable to aim and Fremen charged to them with spears, so their swords were useless.

[Duncan_ghola]

i dont see that happening, how could you manuever a lance so large around when theres battle all around you, and how could you see the enemy in a huge storm? youd be in the same situation as your enemy, imagine charging with a lance into a wall while some sardukar shoves a knife in your jugular

[Caid Ivik]

Fremen are desert people, they should know how to fight in storm. "Desert power", you know. Sardaukars never seen such hurricane, so when it came, they were confused. Fremen stayed on worms, finding for a prey. Sardaukar phalanx was disrupted by worm charge, individuals hunted by Fremen, jumping from height with spears to their heads!

[Duncan_ghola]

even if you are battle hardend fremen veteran, your eyes are guna as easily damaged by sand as anyone elses, and i dont think you can attack from a worm, or jump off one to attack, a worm is very large and is constantly moving, i dont think the worms rode into the city

[Caid Ivik]

Possibly there was some area between the city and Shield Wall. Also I don't think Paul would order nuking the Wall, if it would destroy the city as well. Also, fremen eyes are trained for sand. If you would live in desert for some generations, you won't feel it. Also they could have some protective glasses (like those green panels on sardaukar battlesuits in movie), not sayiong that without them they wouldn't even resist that nuclear bomb in Wall! Problem is more in visibility of target.

[Duncan_ghola]

im sure there was space in between the city and shield wall, but what are the chances of all sard forces out on the sand? thats suicide especially when they knew a storm was coming, and if your eyes cant feel the sting of sand, its likely your blind, fremen loses in the raid were massive too

[Caid Ivik]

Attack was a surprise. They did not knew they will disrupt the Wall, you know, it was softening storms, that's why Arakeen was built there. If I don't feel sand in eyes, then it could be because of protection glasses, as I've said.

[Duncan_ghola]

Yes the fremen had the advantage of suprise, and the storm, but you can only go so far with that, in the end it all comes down to hand to hand fighting, thats why the fremen won, not because they were able to charge with lances or poke people below worms with lances, fremen were the best hand to hand fighters in the imperium, why would the give that up to use large lances? and as for the goggles, i dont recall any fremen wearing goggles, but i think they squinted

[Caid Ivik]

Fremen warfare could be same as i.e.that of roman legions. They charged with spears and when enemies were too close, they took up their short swords and slashed them heads off. I can't imagine fanatical fedaykin in disciplined phalanx, but also even Saracens were using spears.

[Duncan_ghola]

dune warfare isnt organised like the romans warfare, it doesnt even come close to comparision,