Eliyyahu

Wolf, Yes, I see what you mean. The Torah does indeed acknowledge different kinds of servants, and the laws Israelites must observe surrounding them. Whether one agrees with the Torah or not on these things, the point is that they are not based whatsoever on race, or color, or "blood."

Wolf, Just a note, the notion of Ham being a slave is a deception, and a twist of the text. Genesis 9:25 (KJV) 25. And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. Canaan does not represent black Africans, nor Egyptians, who are represented by different sons of Ham (Kush, Mitzrayim). Furthermore, the nations of Canaan have long ceased to be distinct and recognizable, and that was true long before the Europeans tried to use this to justify their feelings toward blacks. To use this to justify enslavement of or looking down on blacks is a total twisting of the text.

Eras, I don't want to be insensitive to your beliefs, but I do want to honestly answer what I believe to be an honest question. To a Jew the notion of a human, Jew or gentile, being an incarnation of God is unacceptable. I don't know if this should be a separate thread or not, I hope a mod will let me know, and I would be happy to move it, or have it moved. Numbers 23:19 (KJV) 19. God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? 1 Samuel 15:29 (KJV) 29. And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent. Isaiah 51:12 (KJV) 12. I, even I, am he that comforteth you: who art thou, that thou shouldest be afraid of a man that shall die, and of the son of man which shall be made as grass; Psalms 146:3-4 (KJV) 3. Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. 4. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Deuteronomy 6:4 (KJV) 4. Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: (a better translation is, "Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one.") Deuteronomy 6:14 (KJV) 14. Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you; 1 Kings 8:27 (KJV) 27. But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded? Isaiah 40:18 (KJV) 18. To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him? Isaiah 40:25 (KJV) 25. To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One. Isaiah 43:10-11 (KJV) 10. Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 11. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. Isaiah 46:5 (KJV) 5. To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like? Deuteronomy 4:11-19 (KJV) 11. And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness. 12. And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. 13. And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. 14. And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it. There are many other quotes along these same lines. Jews cannot accept a God in any form, let alone a human sacrifice as being a benefit to anybody. The lesson of the story of Abraham's binding of his son Isaac is "I will never ask this of anyone, neither of parent nor of child." It is inconceivable for us for God to then turn around and offer a human being on our behalf. The whole point of offerings was that it had a profound effect on people of those days. It caused introspection on the part of the person. It makes no sense to us for God to make an offering for us. It misses the point, and to Jews it has the opposite of the intended effect. It doesn't cause us to think, "Wow, God would do that for us?" It makes us think, "That is not the God we signed up for. That's not the God of our Hebrew Bible" You would not be considered as a type of follower of the Jewish faith. Again, I don't want to offend you, but I must be truthful. There is no Jesus in our beliefs. No divine son of God. No divine Messiah. No trinity, or gods within gods. Shabbat and the dietary mitzvot are every bit as in effect for us the laws regarding adultery, murder, etc. I could never imagine asking God to "take me home to heaven (away from this life)." I think there is a real disregard for this life by some of those who believe in an afterlife. I believe He has placed us in this world to experience it, and to try to improve it for the benefit of all of us.

Dante, Yes, I had another account previously, but I am not worried about recovering it. The discussions of the past are still there in the archives. But if it is an issue I will pursue the old account. I have no intention of using multiples or any funny business. Thank you for your kind words. I hope a meaningful discussion can be had here. I want to make clear that I have no desire to convert anyone to my beliefs. In all of the Torah and the Prophets one will never find a command to convert non-Jews to Judaism, nor an emphasis on making the whole world into Jews. I don't want to make it sound like Jews were/are not concerned with the fate of the nations, it's just that we do not believe the fate of the nations is tied into whether they are Jews or not, or whether they observe the hundreds of mitzvot of the Torah (which they never agreed to or were obligated to observe) or not. Wolf, Thank you. Hopefully some good discussion can be had here. I will try to do my part. Hwi, Don't worry about time, I know I posted a lot, and it required time and care, so I expect a response to require time and care as well.

I can change the title if it is inappropriate. I created a separate thread because the topic goes beyond the scope of the thread the discussion began in. The title was just to get her attention, so she realized this was my reply to her, as it is her post I am specifically responding to.

Yes, that is why he had him crucified (the Roman punishment for insurrection, a punishment experienced by tens if not hundreds of thousands of Jews at the hands of the Romans), and had a faux crown and mocking sign placed above his head. Crucifixion is not a Jewish punishment, nor did the Jews have the power to impose a sentence against the Roman will anyway. Regarding taxes, whether Jesus considered himself the incarnation of God, or a Jewish patriot, it is inconceivable that he would consider anything in the land of Israel as belonging to Caesar, least of all tax meant for the Temple. As many of Jesus' followers as are explicitly or implied to be zealots, it is unlikely he was not teaching against or actively plotting against the Romans.

The division does exist, even if it does not exist for you as a Christian. You claim that Jesus used the word Scriptures indicating the OT and NT are one, but you are ignoring the fact that Jesus did not have or use Paul's letters. Paul never met him. Jesus didn't use the Gospels. He didn't use any of the letters or books in the NT. He used the Torah, the Prophets, the Writings, and he was obviously well acquainted with the Oral Law, and with Midrash in the mold of the Pharisees and Rabbis. But he did not have or use a "NT" in his learning or teaching.

Considering Jesus was crucified as a rebel against Rome, and he lived in a time of anti-tax revolts, in a location which was a hotbed of anti-Roman activity, I think the interpretation that Jesus was telling them to pay taxes stretches credulity.

Caid, Thank you, appreciated. Yes, I believe that God is ultimately behind the Jews return to Israel. As someone who believes the Hebrew Bible, I think it is significant that the Jews have returned to Israel in such large numbers after so long, and not for lack of desire or trying. Perhaps we can say that the non-Jewish nations knew what was said in the Hebrew Bible about the Jews

Hwi, I decided to make a new topic for this discussion. You will not find a single prophet from Moses to Malachi who teaches that Torah observance for Jews would some day come to an end. The Torah's centrality in the books of the prophets whether speaking of their own day or of the messianic era is impossible to miss. You almost have to try to miss it. Exodus 31:16-17 (KJV) 16. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant (B'RIT 'OLAM). 17. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever ('OLAM): for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. There is no limit placed on the Jews

A still yet to come descendant of David through Solomon on his father's side. Notice that he is not described as king of the world. He is described as king of a re-united Bnei Yisrael (children of Israel) in the land of Yisrael. All complex apologetics and arguments aside, any Jews in any time after Jesus can open their eyes and see that the Messianic Era described in the Prophets is not here and has as of yet never been here. No argument can change that, and that is really what it boils down to. The rest is just commentary.

I am much more inclined to believe that Brian found thousands of pages worth of notes from Frank telling him how worthless and disowned he is than to believe he and KJA found a single page worth of support for the nonsense they have written.

Caid, I have no issue with responding to the points and assumptions in your most recent post, but I would rather not clutter up the thread with that before you have answered the three questions in my last post. I asked you those questions so you would phrase your comments more clearly, because I want to know how your questions relate to the post of mine you are responding to, which should allow me to give you a quality response.

What about them? Integrated how? What do you mean by this?

That is what I believe, yes.

Ezekiel 37:21-28 21. And say to them, So says the Lord God: Behold I will take the children of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side, and I will bring them to their land. 22. And I will make them into one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be to them all as a king; and they shall no longer be two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms anymore. 23. And they shall no longer defile themselves with their idols, with their detestable things, or with all their transgressions, and I will save them from all their habitations in which they have sinned, and I will purify them, and they shall be to Me as a people, and I will be to them as a God. 24. And My servant David shall be king over them, and one shepherd shall be for them all, and they shall walk in My ordinances and observe My statutes and perform them. 25. And they shall dwell on the land that I have given to My servant, to Jacob, wherein your forefathers lived; and they shall dwell upon it, they and their children and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. 26. And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever. 27. And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me as a people. 28. And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever." I see no "the Son" mentioned here or in any of the other messianic era prophecy. No need.

Hwi, I will have a post up tonight or tomorrow night (if not, then after Shabbat), probably as a new thread (our discussion goes beyond the scope of this thread).

Hwi, You referenced a quote from Jesus regarding Sodom and Gomorrah. That is of more interest to me than quotes from people who were not Jesus, and who never met Jesus (i.e. Paul and his disciples). Sodom is referenced thirty-nine times in the "OT". In fact, Ezekiel is explicitly clear on what caused Sodom's destruction. Ezekiel 16:49 (NIV) 49. " 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. You may say that detestable things refers to homosexual sex, but this would be an oversimplification. Ezekiel clarifies what he means by detestable things in chapter 18. Ezekiel 18:5-13 (NIV) 5. "Suppose there is a righteous man who does what is just and right. 6. He does not eat at the mountain shrines or look to the idols of the house of Israel. He does not defile his neighbor's wife or lie with a woman during her period. 7. He does not oppress anyone, but returns what he took in pledge for a loan. He does not commit robbery but gives his food to the hungry and provides clothing for the naked. 8. He does not lend at usury or take excessive interest. He withholds his hand from doing wrong and judges fairly between man and man. 9. He follows my decrees and faithfully keeps my laws. That man is righteous; he will surely live, declares the Sovereign LORD. 10. "Suppose he has a violent son, who sheds blood or does any of these other things 11. (though the father has done none of them): "He eats at the mountain shrines. He defiles his neighbor's wife. 12. He oppresses the poor and needy. He commits robbery. He does not return what he took in pledge. He looks to the idols. He does detestable things. 13. He lends at usury and takes excessive interest. Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he will surely be put to death and his blood will be on his own head. "Detestable things" is the NIV translation of ha-to'

Hwi, I already addressed those claims here: http://forum.dune2k.com/index.php?topic=22238.msg356226#msg356226 Feel free to respond here, or even in a new thread if that would be more appropriate. Eliyyahu

Hwi, Christianity has no single set of moral codes, their common denominator is Jesus, and there are different takes on him, and different emphasis on different teachings. Different branches have different takes on Jesus and his morals, and you yourself reject the most ancient and continuous one (Catholicism) for one branch or another of a brand that was created less than a millennium ago. You say God's laws are universal, but you pick and choose what are actually God's laws. Look at the Ten Commandments and you will see that homosexual sex, drunkenness, and pride are not there. And yet I can safely say that you've never kept Shabbat, which is. I will not tell you that you can't have it both ways, but certainly don't expect anyone to put any stock into what you say.

There is no proof whatsoever that it was written in Hebrew. Though it seems to make by far the biggest attempt to target Jews by quoting the "OT" (often the Pseudo LXX), it is full of instances which show an ignorance of Hebrew.

Israel may not be run in exactly the same manner it was in ancient times, but various levels of observance of traditional Judaism is still extremely important in the state, and you would know this if you had more than a surface understanding of Israel. As much as people like to call it a secular state it is very attached to it's Jewishness, and this is apparent when one goes there. Furthermore, ancient Israel was not run by just one super powerful king. For nearly 500 years the Israelites did not have any king. However, they had a Kohen Gadol (High Priest), and they had the higher and the lower councils of elders who interpreted and applied the Torah in every day life situations (I know, it's weird, we have nothing like it in the modern world /sarcarm). All three of these offices operated at different times, sometimes concurrently, in ancient Israel. When the messianic era is described in the Hebrew Bible, many people don't know or like to ignore that the offices of Melech ("king"), Kohen Gadol ("high priest"), and Shoftim (judges) are ALL described as returning (Ezek. 37:24, chapters 44-48, Is. 1:26). Both Melech and Kohen Gadol require anointing making both "messiahs." While modern Israel may not represent the full picture of the messiah age as laid out in the prophets, it has taken many steps. Even if one wishes to put no significance in it, more Jews live in Israel today than in any other country in the world. This was not even the case in Jesus' time, nor at any time since the 8th Century BCE. Jews as a whole are safer in other countries BECAUSE there is a Jewish state today which is conscious of the well being of Jews in other countries, something which has not existed in thousands of years.

You realize the NT is written entirely in Greek with a few (sometimes poor) attempts at transliterating Hebrew or Aramaic words and phrases, right? That the earliest Christian writings (Paul) are replete with Hellenistic ideas which are completely foreign and antithetical to the Hebrew Bible? That the Gospel of John begins with a purely Greek idea ("logos") with no basis in the Hebrew Bible? Your decision to abstain from Greek philosophy hasn't worked out so well. I just said it, so obviously it's not impossible, and demographics back up my assertion. There may be more and more agnostics and unaffiliated people in the country, but the country is still overwhelmingly Christian. It may not be the perfect theocracy you hope for (which is also only loosely based on the Hebrew Bible), but it is nontheless Christian.