affirmative action

[nemafakei]

"What storekeeper would adress a kid as "sir"? "

A polite one.

"if you looked good then the cashier would not have done that. "

Nav, his point IS that under normal circumstances, that would not have happened - but that there was an unconventional circumstance - the storekeeper being racist - which was his reason.

If you're going to ignore someone, there's no point replying to them, because you don't know what they're actually saying. If you are going to reply to someone, make sure you read and understand what they're saying! This is known as basic courtesy.

[SurlyPIG]

i am told ACE is flaming me so i'm gonna respond to his post too:

Couldn't keep to what you said eh Nav?

ACE, it's also pathetic how *you* "play the race card" to make yourself feel all "high and mighty" by reaching out your hand to those who are lesser than you in your opinion because they are not white (note: this is not *my* opinion) and feeling the necessity to fabricate issues on their behalf since you feel them incapable of standing up for themselves (again, probably because you think that as a white person, you're more qualified to carry the Flag for them). based on this, I conclude that you ACE are a pseudo-racist.

Put a sock in it. Nobody asked for your meaningless judgements. That was quite possibly the largest pile of bald-faced lies I've ever seen you post (and that's quite a feat).

how do you know that guy was watching your friends because they were not white? maybe he was watching them because they looked like YOUNG MISFITS. if i was running a classy place like Future Shop, I'd keep my eye on all the young misfits too rather than watching the local businessmen/normal clientele who actually had real money to spend in my store.

You weren't even there! You weren't there at JC Penny with Zamboe either. Why are you defending the actions of racists? Gee I wonder...

There were many other people in the store. People my age and younger too. Many of them dressed in a much more 'suspcious' way too.

it is illegal to stop someone in Canada for suspicsion of a crime unless you're a Police. therefore, the ONLY safeguard that Future Shop employees have against losing merchandise to theft by young hoodlums is to manually watch whoever they think is likely to steal things.

Wrong. They have door scanners, product security tags and security cameras. Harassing customers for security reasons is superfluous.

btw, he knew you had no intention of buying the stereo - so why should he provide help to you about it? the fact that you asked him about it just makes you and your entire band of hoodlums even MORE suspicious --- because that is EXACTLY how real thieves would set up their heist! after that point, he'd have to be an *INCOMPETENT* employee to *NOT* stare at your friends constantly

The stereo I pointed was a JVC Kaboom and there's one three feet away from me that I bought from that very store a few weeks later. Next please.

[TMA_1]

I'm often tired of minorities automatically going to the conclusion that they are being discriminated against, as well. I can't stand many black people who seriously say, "Oh you are going to blah blah because I'm black!" Jesus christ be reasonable. Oh because AberCrombie and Fitch doesn't hire more than 10% of black people, they are discriminatory against minorities. It's business! Their clothing line is targeted towards white people, just like FUBU is targeted towards black people. Black people are able to buy from AC&F just like white people are able to buy from FUBU stores. Would FUBU stores want a pale white male to be up front advertising black clothing? No! It's business! Stop playing the race card every damn time you don't get your way.

I have heard many more alligations other than the one you posted about abercrombie and fitch and other companies like american eagle and whatnot. They are horribly corny and preppie clothing lines and should be disliked anyways. They have though done some questionable things concerning the alligations of racism. I am inclined to agree with those who express their anger against them. Fubu is not just for black people either, I cant stop naming all the white "homies" out there who wear that stuff, and sell it at their stores. There is a smaller gap in that kind of environment actually. Most people just dont realize it because it is stigmatized.

[Acriku]

TMA, just because you don't like their line of clothing (too expensive?) doesn't mean they should be disliked and be accused of discrimination. This shows how closed-minded you are, although you've always been one to agree with that. White people can buy FUBU just like black people can buy from AC and F, but FUBU's targeted demographic is black people. And AC and F's targeted demographic is white people. Get over it. You haven't added anything.

[Scrinlord]

i do not believe this statement. i think you are telling half-truths. if you looked good then the cashier would not have done that. any reasonable person would not believe this.

so, instead of just believing him, you are going to assume that he is lying to us for the express purpose of making a JCpenny cachier look bad? WTF that doesnt even make sense. If you are not going to give people the benifit of the doubt that they can tell the truth, than dont respond th their posts. It is meaningless and degrading to yourself, and we dont want to her any of that bullshit.

[Navaros]

nema & schrinlord, my comments are based on extensive personal history with knowing the character and nature of ACE and Zamboe.

btw schrinlord, you made some silly comments earlier, that an employee was harrassing customers in his own workplace. what happened here was not harrassment: the hoodlums *CHOSE* to be in the store, and employees are free to walk/look/stare anywhere they please in their own workplace.

ACE, you saying that security tags /door alarms are a sufficient safeguard against theft is absurd. to disable those, all a thief has to do is remove the tags and certains parts of the packaging. it takes all of 3 seconds to do that. not hard at all. then is it impossible for the door alarm to be activated by the stolen goods.

ACE, i don't need to have been there because the words you've used don't hold up to scrutiny, as i've pointed out.

birds of a feather flock together ::)

[zamboe]

nema & schrinlord, my comments are based on extensive personal history with knowing the character and nature of ACE and Zamboe.

You don't know me. Besides Nema and Schrinlord have already said who they believe.

How can you know people's nature by a computer ?

[SurlyPIG]

"birds of a feather flock together"

And in this thread, you have flocked to the automatic defense of two racists. Now what does that reveal about you? ::)

Your "extensive personal history" (ROFL) is nothing more than online conversation limited to narrow subjects...but we both know what you really meant. Once again, nobody asked for your opinion, and nobody wants to hear it (as you are, in fact, awarded the title of most-blocked user on FED2K) Try not to let your almost ritual defeats in emperor spill over into FED2K.

And BTW, removing the security features on CDs without the proper tools is impossible to do without breaking them. I don't know about Zamboe's experience because, like you, I wasn't there, but what I said holds up to scrutiny because it is completely true. Your assumptions are, as always, completely absurd.

Baseless, automatic accusations aimed at the person. IMO such behaviour is harrassment and should be punished.

[Navaros]

ACE, much unlike you, i almost never lose in Emperor. you're the guy who loses to new guys such as Duncan_Ghola. ROFL

zamboe & ACE: i don't care what you say, i know you both 100% in terms of what your Character is and what types of persons you are, and anyone doubting that can IM me for the info.

zamboe: i don't care who believes me or not. all i ever do is speak the truth. if people choose not to believe that, oh well; that's not *my* problem. however, i will continue to speak the truth and the truth will always be correct regardless of how many people do or do not believe.

example: Chris recently confirmed what I said about the 3 minute rule being designed specifically to thwart rushers, yet 80% of the people on this board think I'm wrong about that.

ACE, I defended no racist. I am totally against all forms of Racism. I am also against guys like you and Zamboe using "The Race Card" to try and put yourself on a "High Horse" to evoke pity & pat yourselves on the back for being a "Race Crusader" even though you are accusing innocent people of being Racist simply because doing so is fashionable to your contrived Crusade.

[SurlyPIG]

Nav don't even TRY...your record against me is 0-6 at best.

You don't know a damn thing about me, you're just following me around contradicting everything I say to piss me off...same goes for Zamboe. Your posts is this thread have been total, absolute, hate-motivated garbage and I've had enough. The reason I posted that story was to show Zamboe that, despite the fact that racists exist in North America that the problem is not uniform and there are ways to deal with them. I don't care what you think about it and nobody asked you so keep your mouth shut. IMO you should still be banned, but that's another matter...

[Navaros]

ACE,

I am just posting my true and sincere opinions about why you are both making false statements and slandering innocent people by calling them Racist despite the fact that they are not, and i gave ample reasons as to why. i have every reason to believe you are both lying about your circumstances based on my knowledge of your characters and the own words you've chosen to use to outline your claims of "Racism".

if you can't handle your words being held to scrutiny and systematically debunked with stellar rationale as I have done in this thread, then you should not participate in Political discussions. btw your flaming and immature spam in this thread (ie: "shut up, Nav" "put a sock in it" etc. etc.) just serves to further undermine your credibility

[SurlyPIG]

If you cover manure with frosting it's still manure Nav.

You have no reason to contradict neither me nor Zamboe, the posts in question were not opinions they were recounts of events, and unless you were there your observation is completely unfounded, hence you are simply contradicting for the sake of contradiction, and since you post such things in most threads we post in, one can safely conclude that it is nothing more than petty harrassment. Next please.

[Navaros]

ACE, you presented your case, and i debunked what you had presented. i made my reasons quite clear and specific. go back and *READ* what i posted and you will realize that. the only harassment going on in this thread is being done by *you*. saying i should shut up and flaming me/spamming with irrelevant posts to this thread, just because my opinion of whether or not you encountered Racist guys is different than yours.

that said, i'll be the bigger man and stop posting in this thread starting now so as you stop spamming it at the expense of everyone else.

[zamboe]

ACE, much unlike you, i almost never lose in Emperor. you're the guy who loses to new guys such as Duncan_Ghola. ROFL

zamboe & ACE: i don't care what you say, i know you both 100% in terms of what your Character is and what types of persons you are, and anyone doubting that can IM me for the info.

zamboe: i don't care who believes me or not. all i ever do is speak the truth. if people choose not to believe that, oh well; that's not *my* problem. however, i will continue to speak the truth and the truth will always be correct regardless of how many people do or do not believe.

example: Chris recently confirmed what I said about the 3 minute rule being designed specifically to thwart rushers, yet 80% of the people on this board think I'm wrong about that.

ACE, I defended no racist. I am totally against all forms of Racism. I am also against guys like you and Zamboe using "The Race Card" to try and put yourself on a "High Horse" to evoke pity & pat yourselves on the back for being a "Race Crusader" even though you are accusing innocent people of being Racist simply because doing so is fashionable to your contrived Crusade.

Nav you are the worst emperor player, whenever you play you lose, and if you haven't lose lately is because you don't play.

Same as Ace, don't even make me remember the times I beated you. Chris has not said that about the *old* 3 min rule.

You make look yourself like an idiot, defending racists and writing nonsense about events when you were not even there.

On the contrary of your own words, you DO defend racist, you are one yourself.

You are just posting trying to bother people with no good reason, Gob I think that again Nav has crossed the line. I take advantage of this thread to ask you publicaly to ban Nav before you go on vacation.

[Navaros]

Nav you are the worst emperor player, whenever you play you lose, and if you haven't lose lately is because you don't play.

Same as Ace, don't even make me remember the times I beated you. Chris has not said that about the *old* 3 min rule.

You make look yourself like an idiot, defending racists and writing nonsense about events when you were not even there.

On the contrary of your own words, you DO defend racist, you are one yourself.

You are just posting trying to bother people with no good reason, Gob I think that again Nav has crossed the line. I take advantage of this thread to ask you publicaly to ban Nav before you go on vacation.

gotta reply to Zamboe:

you never ever beat me in any real games, and you probably couldn't.

yes Chris did say that and i have a quote of what he said. btw, the 3 minute rule is still in effect on WOL just as it's always been

if I am "the worst player" and you were in *MY* clan for many months, then that just further goes to show that you have no problems with being dishonest in your life. why would you choose to join a clan led by a sucky player? there are only two possible answers.

either you're lying by saying i suck and joined because you respected my skill, or you simply joined out of spite for me because you're a hateful person who enjoys screwing people over by stabbing them in the back after pretending to be their friend for many months.

either way, you've just made it evident to everyone about the type of person you are. thanks.

i think Zamboe should be banned for his continued flaming/spamming of me whenever i post anywhere.

[SurlyPIG]

I concur. But now that Navaros has said he won't post in this thread anymore, we can get back to the topic at hand without risk of harrassment.

EDIT : ^Never mind. Silly of me to think he would keep his word.^

I agree with Nema that AA is essentially a treatment of the symptoms instead of a cure of the cause. That treatment is superficial and comes with negative side effects, some of which are worse than the actual cause AA is trying to fix.

What is the problem? There are considerable social gaps between the prevalence of ethnic minorities in many carrers, and those same minorities on average earn less money than their counterparts. What is the cause of this? I believe the answer is twofold;

1) There are some (a limited number of) people that are just plain racists in positions of some amount of power and let that effect their judgements in some ways.

2) There is a disproportional perception among minorities that there are more racists than there acually are.

Essentially, some people are racists and the ones who are most often victims of racism understandably become more defensive to it. This defensiveness in itself can be the cause of further social and economic disparity for that minority. How can we eliminate this problem? By using a two-tier approach for treating a two-tier problem at the route of the cause, not just the symptoms of that cause like AA does.

1) Whenever people can be identified as abusing their power for racists reasons, punish these openly and publicly and compensate the victims of their actions. Send a message to the racists with action.

2) Send a message to minorities that the state will not tolerate racists abusing their power. Let them know that society is on their side.

However, this solution, if properly implemented, won't fix the inherant racial gaps in society that already exist. To fix these, the following should be done:

a) Improve education in places where racial disparity is evident, mostly in inner city urban settings. This will not only help the minorities that live their but others as well, who also tend to get stuck in a society gap.

b) Improve community relations in these places with government-supported organizations (not government-sponsored, but supported through free use of city space, tax breaks etc.)

c) Bring in non-government organizations (NGOs) to help strengthen the communities and improve not only the standard of living in these areas, but the attitudes as well. A good example of this type of NGOs in the US already is the Boys and Girls Club.

I truly think that ideas similar to these have worked and can work even better if supported. AA is all the right intentions skewed into actions that unfairly cause more substantial problems than they fix.

[Scrinlord]

I agree completely.

And Nav, I just did go back and re-read your posts, and it DOES sound a lot like you are defending racism. You cannot tell us what is the truth, as you were not there, you have no clue what really happened, except for the little bits that zamboe and ACE said. To most everyone else in this thread, their stories sound like legitamate accounts of racism. and sense you only have the information we have, you are in no position to preach to us. If you do not think that those were valid accounts, fine, say so, but make sure that you state an OPINION, dont tell us that you are right by-God and we are wrong. You have no basis for that. Many of your posts do have parts of them that could be used to uphold an opinion, and p eople would be a lot more willing to take you seriously if you didnt try to preach to them.

And my comment about employee harrassment was perfectly reasonable. If the employee was instead the owner of the corporation, then your arguments MIGHT be valid, but as is: The employee is required to do what his boss tells him to do, he has no other rights as far as working goes, except the right to quit. And from the posts, it sounded like this employee had already been complained about and talked to, so he was not justified in any way.

[zamboe]

Nav, I won't answer your garbage in this thread anymore. I hope you get banned.

What is the problem? There are considerable social gaps between the prevalence of ethnic minorities in many carrers, and those same minorities on average earn less money than their counterparts. What is the cause of this? I believe the answer is twofold;

1) There are some (a limited number of) people that are just plain racists in positions of some amount of power and let that effect their judgements in some ways.

2) There is a disproportional perception among minorities that there are more racists than there acually are.

I agree that the causes should be treated, indeed very difficult to make it happen.

About the answers you provide, I would change words like this, in 1) change "some (a limited number of)" for "many", in 2) change "disproportional" for "proportional".

But that in the bottom line depends of personal view.

However, this solution, if properly implemented, won't fix the inherant racial gaps in society that already exist. To fix these, the following should be done:

a) Improve education in places where racial disparity is evident, mostly in inner city urban settings. This will not only help the minorities that live their but others as well, who also tend to get stuck in a society gap.

b) Improve community relations in these places with government-supported organizations (not government-sponsored, but supported through free use of city space, tax breaks etc.)

c) Bring in non-government organizations (NGOs) to help strengthen the communities and improve not only the standard of living in these areas, but the attitudes as well. A good example of this type of NGOs in the US already is the Boys and Girls Club.

That would be a step forward in the right direction. IMO the real causes are not there, the causes and the solution are in every single family, the family and the valued that parents teach to their kids are the only place where racism can be treated as a mirror in families is where kids learn to be racist as well, a person that is racist most likely will continue to be that way for the rest of his/her life, to accept or not accept minorities is something that kids learn in the very beginning of their lives.

[SurlyPIG]

To the first point; if you're talking about people's thoughts on a trained, subconscious level, then who really knows? Unfortunately you can't judge what a persons's deepest thoughts just by their actions. Only you know what you think. But I don't believe there are that many people in North America that will even admit to themselves about having prejudices, certianly nothing close to a majority.

As to the second point, what I posted is what I think is the limit of what society can do about racism. We can't force people to raise their kids a certain way, and instill certain values at home. In schools, however, it is uniformly taught that racism is ancient garbage stemming from the actions of selfish people and broad projects to end it are in effect everywhere. In a hallway in my school there's a giant mural of paper covering one of the walls, at the top it reads "Students Against Racism" and covering it, there are the multi-colored handprints of anyone who wanted their handprint there. My hand is up there in yellow. Everyone I would call my friend has their handprint up there in one color or another. I thought it was the perfect symbol (open hands, all different colors, all tightly packed together...)

[Birdfolly]

I love how everybody wants to get rid of affirmative action for minorities(because races in America are SO equal now) but no one wants to get rid of the similar policies that benefit whites. Relatives of alumni get preferences too. Do we really think that GW Bush got into Princeton on his own merits? Do you think any rich kid ever got to go to college more easily than a poor person? This high and mighty shit people are saying about how affirmative action is racist is getting pretty old.

Ace, if you say you aren't racist enough times maybe we'll believe you. Acknowledging our own racist feelings(ya, that's right, we all have them unless we grew up in a vacuum) is one of the first steps to really understanding ourselves. We can be anti-racist while still acknowledging that.

That said, I think AA is a flawed system but until everyone in this country has access to the same public education before college, the income gap between minorities and whites is closed, and racial advantages for whites are eliminated, something has to be done.

[SurlyPIG]

Well that was a whole lot of falsehoods...

"I love how everybody wants to get rid of affirmative action for minorities(because races in America are SO equal now) but no one wants to get rid of the similar policies that benefit whites."

Birdfolly, there ARE no policies even remotely close to AA for whites. I bet if there were then some of the complaints about it would be taken seriously. Imagine if NBA teams, NFL teams or MLB clubs had AA for whites forced upon them. Show me a single regulation or law that even suggests that white people receive preferntial treatment. Get your facts straight

Everyone does have access to the same public education before college. A high school diploma and the marks that come with it from any given public school carries the same weight as if it were from any other in that district. Common, standardized practice. Students take the same courses, write the same tests, and their marks carry the same weight.

And GW Bush went to Yale and to Harvard not Princeton. If you didn't know that, how could you possibly know that he was not accepted on his own merits? Again, get your facts straight.

As always the only defense for AA is accusing anyone who's against it of being a racist...

[zamboe]

"I love how everybody wants to get rid of affirmative action for minorities(because races in America are SO equal now) but no one wants to get rid of the similar policies that benefit whites."

on top of that there is the racist and discrimination practices covered under the "right to choose" that white people have. I've talked to a lawyer and he told me that is indeed very difficult to prove that under some circumstances some member of the black/latin/asian comunity have been discriminated, because racists use as a shield their "right and freedom to choose".

I would say that within the group of people that are against AA there is the whole spectrum, non racist, people who really don't care and racist as well, it's up to everyone to make an opinion of everyone and stick to it.

[Birdfolly]

Good point on Princeton, whoops! ;) My apologies for a weak post.

Of course there is no AA for whites because we are already at the top of the food chain. There are, however, legal policies that help keep us there even beyond the fact that we already historically have most of the money and power.

1) family of alumni get special considerations, thus my flawed Bush example. This is legal in the US.

2) Children in poor neighborhoods(also correlates to high percentage of minorities) go to poor, crowded schools and get a worse education even though they take the same standardized tests. There is no law in the US that says everyone gets the same education. It is obviously not true.

I understand that these issues may occur to a lesser degree, or not at all in Canada. This may account for some misunderstanding between us.

[Acriku]

Birdfolly, those policies are non-discriminatory. AA policies are.

[Birdfolly]

You don't have to call it discrimination if you don't want to. I didn't call it discrimination either. Those policies, however, contribute to the economic(and power)gap between the white people and minorities.

I think that is a big problem. You guys are just fine with it because it doesn't hurt you. Here's the part where you say how anyone can do anything if they try hard enough.

I say, how about some active steps toward economic equality.