A prophet without a God

[Edric O]

Ne t'en fais pas de soucis. ;)

Yes, they were slaughtered because they were a threat to the stalinist regime. And that was because they preached Christianity, while the regime did not tolerate anything other than atheism. Do you see my point?

[Acriku]

Oh but then again, he wasn't a real christian ;) (referring to AJ)

Edit: Edric, yes I see your point, and that's true, but not because he was an atheist, but because religion was harmful to his regime. Perhaps he was an atheist because it would hurt his regime, that'd be interesting to find out about.

[Edric O]

Well, religion is harmful to any totalitarian regime: It tells people that there is a higher authority than the big powerful dictator.

That's why all dictators in history either said that there is no God, or (more often) made themselves gods.

[Acriku]

Indeed. Well, some religions aren't theist, maybe the dictators can pick from one of them ;) A Wiccan Stalin, just imagine...

[SurlyPIG]

"Yes, they were slaughtered because they were a threat to the stalinist regime. And that was because they preached Christianity, while the regime did not tolerate anything other than atheism. Do you see my point?"

They didn't want atheism either Edric. They wanted people to worship THEM, and nothing else.

"That's why all dictators in history either said that there is no God, or (more often) made themselves gods."

Not always. Some have claimed to be messengers of God or at least closer to God such as royalty in the Dark ages and middle ages in Britain. This was followed without question until the plague, when it was discovered that fate favoured neither peasant nor nobility. Then there's the Islamic dictators that pretend they are descendants of Mohammed. (I think one of them actually is)

[Acriku]

Hitler embraced christianity publicly and it worked.

[Miles]

[c]

Ummmm, noHere's an example. Notice that there are MORE atheists than all the theists put together.

Maybe we just go to different sites. The ones I visit are mostly related to politics. And they are the ones being "flooded" (so to speak) by atheists.

Yes, maybe we do go to different sites. Some will be flooded others won't. The point is that theists are well represented on the internet.

And try to pay a little more attention to my arguments from now on. If I qualify as "fundamentalist", then I guess the world must be some sort of extremely politically correct Star Trek-ish perfect utopia... :)

ok. Are you a creationist? If so, creationism is religious fundamentalism at it's worst.

Yes, I'm sure all right-wing warmongering fascists consider my arguments to be pathetic and weak. ;)

I think those on this site can read your posts and see the truth in what I say. Accept for all those other America-bashing, peacemongering(peace at any price) fanatics.

Now, since atheism means only the lack of a religious belief, how are non-religious theme parks not atheist?

(in case you haven't noticed yet, this argument is meant to be sarcastic)

The purpose of those theme parks is not to brainwash the tourists to their beliefs. The same cannot be said for religious theme parks.

In other words, "we are right and you are wrong". What a brilliant, amazingly intellectual and perfectly logical argument! ::)

If the shoe fits......

But tell me, why is this business of forcing your version of "freedom" on everyone so prevalent in your way of thinking? First Iraq, now religion... everyone has to be "free", and they have to be "free" YOUR WAY!

Freedom is a pretty damn good thing. Oppression, be it political or idelogical, suppresses human developement. We can never acheive our potential as a species as long as our creativity is squashed by the powerful who see it as threatening to their power base.

I think the negatives of political oppression are pretty self-evident. It's too bad that you don't support the removal of politically oppressive regimes.

Religious oppression can be far more dangerous though. Religion promotes stagnation. The religious sheep, most of them, take comfort in the truth that is spoonfed to them rather than actively seeking it out themselves. If it weren't for those that had the ability to think "outside" of religious fundamentalism, then we would not have the advances that we have managed thus far. The religous leaders attempt to stifle creativity because it threatens the base of control that they maintain with their "truth".

Case in point-- evolution in Kansas is not a required topic in science classes because of the pressure from the religious fundamentalists. Becaue of this some of our kids are hamstrung as they go to college because they do not have full knowledge of one of the most basic principles of biology. Why? Because the religious fundamentalists see evolution as a threat to their "truth" and their grip on the masses.

Islam tends to be MUCH worse. Just look at what is happening in Iraq. The clerics are using their religious control to vie for power in the post war government. Why? because if the culture becomes somewhat westernized, and free-thinking, then they will be exposed, as will the other Islamic governments in the region. Freedom is dangerous to those in power, but is essential to the developement of the people.

Alright, I'll grant you that. But such places are extremely rare these days, especially in the western world.

Not in the U.S. they aren't. The Bible belt stretches long and wide. Don't be fooled by the messages you get from the east and west coasts. They represent the minority.

Of course they are. But they make up for it by killing loads more people. In fact, atheist dictators have managed to kill more people in a single century than all Christians in all of history combined! Now THAT's an achievement!

Well, let's get one thing straight. I do admit that atheistic ideals did play some role, but never have they been the sole motivation. As with those you listed, it was more out of eliminating those who threatened your power. Pol Pot, and Stalin killed people simply on the basis that they had been exposed to western culture. They killed anyone who spoke out against them, as did Saddam Hussein. On the other hand, events like the crusaids, jihad, and ethnic clensing have been done on stricly religous grounds.

Yes, I'm glad you finally agree. All of them can be used as excuses for murder, and atheism is no exception.

I don't think the masses have ever been rallied behind an atheistic ideology. I admit that atheism has played a role in some atrocities, but not to the extent that theism has.

[TMA_1]

edric, even I have to agree that attacking athiest leaders is silly. Most of the athiest leaders could care less about what people believed. They just didnt like the conformity that was brought with it. and the uplifting that made it "dangerous" to the governments. as warped as this sounds, it really wasent personal to them. They may have hated religion, but they really didnt take the issue itself that seriously. Only if it was a threat to their country.

You could say the same for many christian rulers that used the name of christ to kill.

This is why I so disagree with religions such as Daoism. It may sound silly, but it really is our nature to act unnaturally. There are two forms of evil that are dominant in this world, and account for the evil dictators we see.

Those who allow their natural instincts to run amuck. They never fight their urges and because of that will go by their every little whim. This is rare though.

There is also a majority of evil which is caused by overstressing our fight against our own nature. To the point where we control ourselves and others in our own independant way.

Silly people. Evils arent caused by lifestyles or codes of living. Those are a result of how we handle nature. Those who let loose and become hedonistic will follow a liberal path to evil. Those who dominate over nature will detatch themselves from what is good and true, using their own principles in order to live instead of depending on the righteousness that we inharently have.

[Edric O]

Acriku, please stop making uninformed claims about Hitler for the sole purpose of discrediting Christianity. I thought we already proved it several times that Hitler had his own twisted religion, in which he was God.

Exhibit A: a very informative article

Exhibits B through D:

"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure."

- Adolf Hitler, 10th October, 1941

"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease."

- Adolf HItler, 13 Dec 1941

"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death"

- Adolf Hitler, 14 Oct 1941

[Edric O]

Yes, maybe we do go to different sites. Some will be flooded others won't. The point is that theists are well represented on the internet.

Are you sure? For some reason it seems that the only forums where Christians are in a majority are the forums of sites specifically concerned with Christianity...

Can you point me to some of those polls you mentioned earlier, so I can see what kinds of sites hosted them? Just curious...

ok. Are you a creationist? If so, creationism is religious fundamentalism at it's worst.

LOL! See, I told you to read more of my posts... If you would have done that, you would have found out that I am in fact an evolutionist. And I also wrote (over and over again, because people never remember it) a good explanation of why that is so.

I'd also like to point out that, from my experience, creationism is restricted solely to American Christians...

I think those on this site can read your posts and see the truth in what I say. Accept for all those other America-bashing, peacemongering(peace at any price) fanatics.

Funny, since you don't seem to read my posts yourself... (see comment above)

Freedom is a pretty damn good thing. Oppression, be it political or idelogical, suppresses human developement. We can never acheive our potential as a species as long as our creativity is squashed by the powerful who see it as threatening to their power base.

Absolutely correct! That's why I'm a liberal.

I think the negatives of political oppression are pretty self-evident. It's too bad that you don't support the removal of politically oppressive regimes.

Oh, I support their removal alright. But not by foreign invaders.

Not in the U.S. they aren't. The Bible belt stretches long and wide. Don't be fooled by the messages you get from the east and west coasts. They represent the minority.

Perhaps they do. But it's this minority that has the greatest influence on the rest of the world. The East and West coasts are what we see of America...

Well, let's get one thing straight. I do admit that atheistic ideals did play some role, but never have they been the sole motivation. As with those you listed, it was more out of eliminating those who threatened your power. Pol Pot, and Stalin killed people simply on the basis that they had been exposed to western culture. They killed anyone who spoke out against them, as did Saddam Hussein. On the other hand, events like the crusaids, jihad, and ethnic clensing have been done on stricly religous grounds.

I don't think the masses have ever been rallied behind an atheistic ideology. I admit that atheism has played a role in some atrocities, but not to the extent that theism has.

Ah, now you're finally starting to see the other side of the coin.

You see, both theism and atheism have been responsible for injustice and murder, both directly and indirectly. Using this bloody past as an argument against either one of them makes you a hypocrite, because your own belief (or non-belief) system was just as bad.

So, can we agree that both theism and atheism have an equally dark past, and that we should put this past behind us?

Religious oppression can be far more dangerous though. Religion promotes stagnation. The religious sheep, most of them, take comfort in the truth that is spoonfed to them rather than actively seeking it out themselves. If it weren't for those that had the ability to think "outside" of religious fundamentalism, then we would not have the advances that we have managed thus far. The religous leaders attempt to stifle creativity because it threatens the base of control that they maintain with their "truth".

Case in point-- evolution in Kansas is not a required topic in science classes because of the pressure from the religious fundamentalists. Becaue of this some of our kids are hamstrung as they go to college because they do not have full knowledge of one of the most basic principles of biology. Why? Because the religious fundamentalists see evolution as a threat to their "truth" and their grip on the masses.

And that is exactly why I despise the conservative corruption that has infested Christianity over the past millenium. Was Jesus a conservative? Were the Apostles conservatives? Were any of the first Christians conservatives? NO! They were all radical social reformers. Jesus Christ came on Earth to CHANGE the world. To bring a new hope and a new light, that would shake the very foundations of the old world order.

Jesus was one of the greatest reformers in history. And as for the religious conservatives, the corrupt clergy that worships money above any God - they are the ones who CRUCIFIED Jesus.

All these present-day Christian fundamentalists would have been right there among the pharisees, throwing stones at Jesus and His followers.

The religious right disgusts me.

[Acriku]

Edric, I was talking about how he used christianity for his reich, don't get your panties in a bunch. And no, I don't think it is conclusive to reach that conclusion Edric, just go here http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitlerchristian.htm .

Oh, I support their removal alright. But not by foreign invaders.

And how else do you suppose they go about removing it? The Iraqi did not have arms, or the motivation to go against the juggernaut Hussein with his own army.

[sneezer3]

His own version of christianity.

[Acriku]

Christianity is christianity, it just depends on how you interpret what Jesus says, and the bible. Many times people get 'inspired' from the bible, and do some crazy things.

[TMA_1]

athiesm is athiesm. oh wait, there is agnostic athiesm, and nostic athiesm and so many others. hmmm a split personality? ;)

Your smarter than that acriku. that was just an ignorant statement. Of course an athiest site will give out propaganda supporting hitler as a christian. I said before that you cant compare people with a lifestyle or system. that included athiesm. how can you now compare people with the standards of christianity, when you were the one that said at the beginning that you cant compare people with the system they believe? the system isnt at fault, the person twisted it. you are just seeing a convenient way of attacking, but it is extremely immature.

[Acriku]

TMA, I don't care if he had his own christianity, or some f*ed up cult, that wasn't the intention of my mentioning of it. So drop it, or make another thread. And do not criticize material because of your closed-minded opinion on the site, and what it is about.

[Miles]

Are you sure? For some reason it seems that the only forums where Christians are in a majority are the forums of sites specifically concerned with Christianity...

I'm not saying that they are in the vast majority, but at least equal. Dreamers of dune, philosophy forums, physics forums (majority atheist, but a good representation of theists), and of course Christiansunite(obviously atheists are the minority). I'm not going to bother with looking up the polls that were done on some of them, but if memory serves theists were well represented.

LOL! See, I told you to read more of my posts... If you would have done that, you would have found out that I am in fact an evolutionist. And I also wrote (over and over again, because people never remember it) a good explanation of why that is so.

Sorry, Edric, I am not going to go back and read everyone's posts from this site. I don't recall ever discussing this with you, so I didn't know.

Funny, since you don't seem to read my posts yourself... (see comment above)

I go by the posts that I have read in my discussions with you. I do not have time to surf all the threads of this board, nor the desire to. I judge you by our discussions.

Freedom is a pretty damn good thing. Oppression, be it political or idelogical, suppresses human developement. We can never acheive our potential as a species as long as our creativity is squashed by the powerful who see it as threatening to their power base.

Absolutely correct! That's why I'm a liberal.

And religion is that great power that suppresses that crativity for it's own survival.

Oh, I support their removal alright. But not by foreign invaders.

So what are you saying? The Iraqi people were just biding their time while thousands to millions of their family members were tortured and killed? Foreign invasion was the only hope for the Iraqi people.

Perhaps they do. But it's this minority that has the greatest influence on the rest of the world. The East and West coasts are what we see of America...

Well, it is much different here in the "Bible Belt", and probably most of the rest of the country except for L.A. and New York. This is probably why I am so vocal against religion. I see the sheep up close and personal and it disgusts me. I will fight to keep my children safe from the brainwashing.

Ah, now you're finally starting to see the other side of the coin.

You see, both theism and atheism have been responsible for injustice and murder, both directly and indirectly. Using this bloody past as an argument against either one of them makes you a hypocrite, because your own belief (or non-belief) system was just as bad.

No, I see atheism as having been a factor in some atrocities, not the prime motive. Religion on the other hand needs no other motives.

So, can we agree that both theism and atheism have an equally dark past, and that we should put this past behind us?

No, as I said, atheism has been a factor. I admit that. But religion has been the cause. These are not equal.

And that is exactly why I despise the conservative corruption that has infested Christianity over the past millenium. Was Jesus a conservative? Were the Apostles conservatives? Were any of the first Christians conservatives? NO! They were all radical social reformers. Jesus Christ came on Earth to CHANGE the world. To bring a new hope and a new light, that would shake the very foundations of the old world order.

Jesus was one of the greatest reformers in history. And as for the religious conservatives, the corrupt clergy that worships money above any God - they are the ones who CRUCIFIED Jesus.

All these present-day Christian fundamentalists would have been right there among the pharisees, throwing stones at Jesus and His followers.

The religious right disgusts me.

I really do agree with you. Unfortunately, most people find it easier to follow those who spout this right-wing fundamentalism than to think for themselves. Not only here in Kansas, but in other places around the world like the Middle East where they send their sheep out to kill themselves because their cleric claims it will get them to heaven.

I would like to clear something up. I don't have a problem with theism. I don't agree with it, but many theists do keep a pretty open mind. The problem rests in organized religion. The masses following those who reveal the absolute truth to them. They become slaves to this truth, sheep for those who control the "word or God", refusing to accept any errancy in their "word" and attempting to brainwash others to their beliefs. These people are too easily controlled by their masters, and are therefore dangerous to humanity as a whole.

Unfortunately, it seems, that some ruthless, murdering, asshole dictators saw this fact too, and decided to murder the sheep rather than educating them. This only strengthens the control of the masters, as their followers then come running back to them for protection.

My purpose is not to convert theists to atheists, but to break the mindless fanaticism that comes with organized religion. To show people that the universe shows us much more amazing and fantastic things than any 2000 year old sheepherder could ever have imagined. If the masses could throw off this security blanket provided by their masters which blinds them from the outside world, and step out to discover what it really around them, then I see the possibility of humanity coming closer to it's potential.

[nemafakei]

TMA, Acriku, if neither of you have anything nice to say to each other, say nothing at all. Not a slightest suggestion of anything other than polite, calm, unassuming discussion, else you are not to post in this thread again.