Iraqis protest American presence

[Dude_Doc]

Freedom has always been won with force. That's just the way it is.

[Edric O]

And how the hell would the Iraqi know what they want? They've been under submission for many years, ascribed to a lot of propoganda, not even getting the right education. So, sometimes we have to overlook what they want and find what's best for them, whether they want it or not.

Yes, yes, Acriku, I see it all now: The Iraqis are just stupid blind fools! They're too stupid to know what's good for them! YOU know best! And since they're just mindless sheep, they need a wise leader to tell them what's good and what's bad, who to love and who to hate, and most of all to show them the right way to think! ::)

A lot of things have been done for the interests of America, and capitalism, and good has come out of it - like improving foreign relations with China and Russia, pit them against each other and one of the communist regimes will fall, without American lives lost. And about South Korea, the US government strongly urged Diem to hear his people's cries, and get their support. But he didn't, and made it worse.

We supported them for American interests, and we go against them for American and the world interests.

This is so disgusting that it is actually making me sick. Who died and made you judge and jury of the world? What gives you the RIGHT to sacrifice entire nations like pawns in a giant chess game? Hasn't it ever crossed you mind that perhaps those people don't WANT to be your pawns? That perhaps they don't WANT to be sacrificed for your glory and for your benefit, in the name of the dollar-god of capitalism?

The interests of America are in no way more important than the interests of the millions of people you sacrificed. You were no better than the Soviets.

[Acriku]

It's sad that you have to jump to conclusions so much Edric. Surely your defense for your argument can suffice without such resorts.

Yes, yes, Acriku, I see it all now: The Iraqis are just stupid blind fools! They're too stupid to know what's good for them! YOU know best! And since they're just mindless sheep, they need a wise leader to tell them what's good and what's bad, who to love and who to hate, and most of all to show them the right way to think!

And what makes you think the Iraqi citizens know anything about politics, economics, society, and the stabilities of all of them? Making a country is a complex process, and relying on the people who have been under oppression and propoganda would be a mistake in making the country.

This is so disgusting that it is actually making me sick. Who died and made you judge and jury of the world? What gives you the RIGHT to sacrifice entire nations like pawns in a giant chess game? Hasn't it ever crossed you mind that perhaps those people don't WANT to be your pawns? That perhaps they don't WANT to be sacrificed for your glory and for your benefit, in the name of the dollar-god of capitalism?

Didn't know I was the judge and jury of the world. I was just explaining that a lot of things were done for American interests. And stated an observation that some good has come out of it, and gave an example - which, looking back, may not have seemed such a good one.

The interests of America are in no way more important than the interests of the millions of people you sacrificed. You were no better than the Soviets.

I know this, I was just saying what was done. It isn't my opinion, it's what happened. It was a brand new country, and to develop into a superpower it had to protect its interests, and to maintain that superpower it has to protect its interests now and in the future. You can cry all you want, but it's going to continue. My opinion on this is irrelevant, though.

[Edric O]

Sorry about that, Acriku, I was angry when I wrote it... Too much politics will do that to you. ;)

Ok, now for the argument:

And what makes you think the Iraqi citizens know anything about politics, economics, society, and the stabilities of all of them? Making a country is a complex process, and relying on the people who have been under oppression and propoganda would be a mistake in making the country.

Yes, you are correct. However, not relying on those people at all is a sure way to oppression and dictatorship. Even though they can't run everything on their own yet, they must be given SOME power in determining their own fate! That was my point.

Didn't know I was the judge and jury of the world. I was just explaining that a lot of things were done for American interests. And stated an observation that some good has come out of it, and gave an example - which, looking back, may not have seemed such a good one.

Sorry - I thought you were expressing your support for everything the USA did, not merely stating it. :-

I know this, I was just saying what was done. It isn't my opinion, it's what happened. It was a brand new country, and to develop into a superpower it had to protect its interests, and to maintain that superpower it has to protect its interests now and in the future. You can cry all you want, but it's going to continue. My opinion on this is irrelevant, though.

Crying a whining about it is uttely futile. What I intend to do is to fight it, to the best of my ability. You see, sooner or later, every empire or superpower must fall. Memento mori...

[DukeLeto]

Well, your wrong. This is the way we do things. We do not oppress. Freedom of speech is our greatest right in this country, and it is the right that we would have given to all people.

Bush's stupid "Patriot Act" does indeed restrict your freedoms; you can now be arrested because, basically, they don't like you. ::)

[Acriku]

Good enough edric :)

Duke, in times of terrorist attacks and war, the Patriot Act is only a desparate measure in a desparate time.

[DukeLeto]

The times frankly aren't that desperate. ::) It's not like we're being invaded or anything. ::) Ooh, a couple of buildings burn down. Big whoop. That's no reason to turn the contry into a friggen police state. >:(

[SurlyPIG]

That disgusts me. Three thousand completely innocent free civillians lose their lives in the name of a religious war and you say "Big whoop"???

[Acriku]

Reminds me of a song by Darryl Worley, "Have you forgotten". All about those who say we don't need this war, have you forgotten bin laden and the day on september, a great country song. Andrew Jackson has another good song on the radio.

If this country was a police state, you'd be crying about a whole lot more. This is not a police state, this is America during war. Do you know what it was like in the World Wars with rationing food? Worse than this, I can tell you that.

[nemafakei]

Ten times 3,000 innocent die each day on account of poor water supply. And I bet you hear over ten times more of the rich bankers and stock-exchnage-brokers and modern merchants.

Do you think such a great reaction would have happened if a plane flew into an equally heavy concentration of people in London? Paris? Baghdad? Nairobi? Of course not.

I think the important thing to grasp here is a sense of perspective.

But back to Iraq.

[Acriku]

Or look at it from our perspective Nema. America, the free country, the country to prosper and to live well, and to be in a great country, and foreign terrorists come to our country and bring down 2 important very tall buildings and killing thousands. Maybe if it happened in your country into the tallest of your buildings you would get the picture.

You bomb our harbors, we bite back. You bring down our buildings, we bite back.

And another thing, this happened all at once, in the course of a few hours. Tens of thousands die of cancer in America, but those are isolated cases, this is one case with thousands dead.

[Dude_Doc]

Crying a whining about it is uttely futile. What I intend to do is to fight it, to the best of my ability.

Why do you want to fight the land of freedom, Edric? I thought you wanted freedom. I must have been wrong...

You see, sooner or later, every empire or superpower must fall.

Well, then Socialism must sooner or later dissapear from the face of humanity too...

[nemafakei]

"Why do you want to fight the land of freedom, Edric?"

Correct me, Edric, if I'm wrong, but I rather thing that Edric sees the US as the land of its freedom at the expense of others'.

I see why people have got so upset, but lashing out helps little; the problem lies in the conception amongst much of the poor world that the US is the cause of their suffering, and of the '2nd' world that the US is the best thing since sliced bread (hence they won't help the poor group in which they formerly resided), and among the richest countries, a partner inextricably linked by trade and military alliance (and the notion that the US will come to thier defence if any danger threatens them; this often applies to '2nd world'countries, too). Please excuse the overlong sentence.

"Do you know what it was like in the World Wars with rationing food?"

How much would, under normal circumstances, be done by the US about WWII London? Starving Baghdad? Packed, but emaciated Nairobi?.

[Acriku]

I don't understand the question Nema, do you mean how much would be done now? Or then?

[nemafakei]

Obviously, after Sept. 11, the idea of a "War on Terror" has become popular, so Baghdad has been taken, and circumstances changed... I meant at the time for London, under normal circumstances (eg 30 years hither) for Baghdad, and pretty much any time for Nairobi.

[Acriku]

If I'm understanding your question right (which is still confusing), I think the US will give support to London if it was bombed in these days like in WWII, and send workers to help out, and Red Cross would come, etc. Most world events, America helps (those that it can).

[nemafakei]

My question was more along the lines of would the US support a retaliatory attack (or preemptive strike) thereby, and whether such an offensive would be right. c.f. WWII when the US didn't even get involved until it itself was attacked.

[Acriku]

Well, nowadays it isn't practicing a more intensive policy of imperialism so probably. But I have no guarantee about it.

[nemafakei]

Er, there goes the rhetorical question...

My point was that they didn't then, and I don't see much by way of admitting mistakes now.

I apologise for the lack of clarity in my argument... a little too much confusion here.

[Acriku]

It's not a big deal that they didn't do it then, because they had different policies, and different leaders. America's government changes every 4 or 8 years, things are bound to change drastically.

[Edric O]

Don't worry, Ace, you're an intelligent guy. You might one day understand. There is still hope for you! :)

Dude_Doc: Please, not the pathetic "land of freedom" cliche again! Nema is correct. The USA gives freedom to its citizens, but only at the expense of everyone else. (especially people in poor 3rd world countries)

And yes, when I said that all systems and superpowers must eventually fall, I also meant that socialism (and later on Communism) will eventually go the same way. And like all systems before them, they will be replaced by something better, something we cannot even imagine at this point in history.

[Dude_Doc]

Dude_Doc: Please, not the pathetic "land of freedom" cliche again! Nema is correct. The USA gives freedom to its citizens, but only at the expense of everyone else. (especially people in poor 3rd world countries)

And Europe does not?

[SurlyPIG]

No Edric. Not in a million years. I will never understand why some people say "big whoop" in the face of a genocidal atrocity. It reminds me of the passive Germans that said "big whoop" in the face of the holocaust.

[Acriku]

Tens of millions of people die each year, the holocaust wasn't a big deal. Big whoop. So a few million jews died, whoopdiedoo!

You see, there is no difference between one man, and a million men. It would be morally right to go to war against a country because they hold a single prisoner of war during peace times. If there is a difference, where does the line cross? 10? 1,000? 1,000,000? What if there were 999,999, would 1,000,000 still be the line between an atrocity and a 'no whoop'?

[SurlyPIG]

It also depends on how and why they die. Starvation is needless, same with deaths to primitive disease. Other, intentional, intolerant deaths that occur because of totalitarian ideology is what's atrocious to me.