The Dread Legion

[Edric O]

So, Acriku, you ask me how could our society POSSIBLY degenerate into complete immorality while we still have parental and societal conditioning? Well, you answered that question yourself:

Slow societal metamorphosis

I never said that without religion the world would collapse into anarchy. What I am saying is that without an absolute moral system, the world could slowly slide towards a new Nazi empire. After all, what's there to stop it?

[SurlyPIG]

CAID:

"What should maintain the laws of morale..."

People, as we always have.

"what the hell we are and why we are?"

We are complex life forms that became of lesser things through circumstance. On the most primitive level, we are products of circumstance.

EMPRWORM:

Careful there, I remember numerous occasions when you've referred to other people as 'insignificant human bipedal life forms comprised mostly of water a few chromosomes away from some fish and some plants' which is not fundamentally different from Nema's post, only more specific.

EDRIC:

In case you didn't notice, ALL morals are relative. As they should be. In any civilized country, you'll spend less time in jail for stealing than you would for killing someone. Since you mentioned Christian morals as being the route of all good in society, let's go there. First of all, they are pathetically defined. In any good book of law, the laws are not one-liners. Second, they are punished or forgiven absolutely; the best possible scenario versus the worst possible scenario (Heaven vs Hell). That's ludicrous. Humans are not absolute beings, being subjected to absolute judgement from an allegedly absolute being is possibly the most illogical conception held by modern religion. That's as to suggest that there's no commandment is more important than another. Under civilized, secular laws, saying "Oh my God." will have no legal consequence. Murdering people will have great consequence. But according to Christian morality, both go against commandments (Thou shalt not use the Lord's name in vein and Thou shalt not murder) and both have the same punishment so they are equal. Now which do you think is worse, saying something like "Good Lord!" when something surprises you, or mercilessly murdering fifty thousand people? Hopefully you'll say the latter, and as such you are basing that off of good, relative values.

One of my favourite concepts first outlined by one of the father's of the free market economy at the birth of the United States (I wish I could remember the names for both) outlines the idea that people have a tendancy to do what is best. Best for themselves, best for others, best for the planet, best for the universe. In recorded human history, life has become progressively better and better for ALL people over time. There have been see-saws in the wrong direction, but each time, mistakes are recognized, sometimes even corrected, and prevented from ocurring again. With each 'mistake', when consequences are recognized, there is a general increase in rigidity for the next time such a situation should occur. I realize I'm being extremely general here but this concept is very broad.

However, this concept depends on one thing; education. EQUAL access to education and information. This is absolutely, positively essential. Without this, anything can happen. Without this, shit hits the fan. Without this, people can become pawns in someone else's shceme.

My highest belief is that everyone should be informed. And no, I don't just mean current events and stuff, I mean they should be informed that their actions have consequences. This breeds responsibility. They must be learn that they effect other people. This breeds empathy for others. Ignorance is doom.

[Acriku]

So, Acriku, you ask me how could our society POSSIBLY degenerate into complete immorality while we still have parental and societal conditioning? Well, you answered that question yourself:

Slow societal metamorphosis

I never said that without religion the world would collapse into anarchy. What I am saying is that without an absolute moral system, the world could slowly slide towards a new Nazi empire. After all, what's there to stop it?

No I didn't, but ok. That's entirely possible, but that's what we are trying to avoid here. There are a lot of people aware of our present state in society, some like it some don't. But I do not see a moral decline in the American society, and no data supports that guess.

[Anathema]

Acriku: what are you saying? 80 % of Americas population is christian.

I'm not really a hard core atheist (haven't really made up my mind yet), and I do believe that morality would be rather shifty if it weren't for religion. We can talk about this all we want, but the fact is that there never was a fully atheistic society and thus we don't know what it would have been like. We do know that in todays society, wich is dominated by christian morale, there is a "fair" degree of morality.

[Edric O]

First of all, Ace, who said anything about the Ten Commandments? I was talking about Christian Morals, which is a much broader term. From start to finish, the Bible talks a lot about morality. The Ten Commandments are only a small part of it.

Second, where exactly does it say that you get equal punishment for breaking any one of the Ten Commandments? I certainly don't remember reading that anywhere... The fact is that the The Ten Commandments are a short list of things that you should or should not do. All they do is to separate right from wrong. They do not talk about punishment, and the fact that no priority is given to one commandment over another doesn't mean that such a priority doesn't exist.

Oh, and btw, taking the Lord's name in vain means commiting blasphemy, not saying things like "Oh my God", or "Good Lord".

[Acriku]

I get a hint of sarcasm Earth, but I can't really tell :-

Edric, the 10 commandments seem to be a huge thing in America - why, people want them posted everywhere to remind us! They don't want other laws found in the testaments, they want the Ten Commandments. I think you don't give the 10C enough credit.

I've always thought taking the Lord's name in vain was like: 'Jesus christ that was awesome!' or 'Holy Jesus and Mary I'm gonna be a mother!' or 'God damn republicans!'

[Edric O]

Well, Acriku, the 10 Commandments are important, but they're not everything. Not even close. After all, they do not include any of Jesus's teachings! Shouldn't a Christian pay more attention to what Christ said? Just a thought...

And as for taking the Lord's name in vain, I'm quite sure it means blasphemy.

[Acriku]

http://www.hiswayministries.org/hwnews/hwvain.htm

Is that what you are talking about? Sounds good to me.

[Anathema]

I get a hint of sarcasm Earth, but I can't really tell :-

I wasn't being sarcastic. There's no reason to assume an atheistic society would retain the same moral code for centuries. A society with a sizable religious population wouldn't have that problem.

[Acriku]

I meant about the "What are you saying? 80 % of Americas population is christian." Didn't make sense towards my post, but oh well.

Who knows what an entirely secular society would be like. It depends on what it is founded upon. The society in Starship Troopers book is entirely secular, and works well. Note: they aren't all atheists, but there is no hint of religion in the society. I could be wrong though, haven't finished the book yet. But I have no doubt that it could work. It just needs people to come together and realize that it is for the good of all humanity to do it right. We don't need deception and spooky stories to keep us together, all we need is ourselves.

But even in this country, where 80% are Christians (according to you), it hasn't retained the same moral code for centuries, also it's only been a little over 2 centuries. And even now, it's becoming more secular (even though it was made to be entirely secular according to our Founding Fathers).

Why is there no reason? What makes an atheistic society (secular) less able to keep ethics and morality? We just haven't found one yet, but it doesn't mean it can't or ever will work.

[Anathema]

I haven't read the book, but the movie ST portrayed a society that was about as facist as Benito Mussolini himself. I don't see that being a good thing.

"we just haven't found one yet"

a society founded by and for atheists only? I think it would turn out opressive and immoral, and if it really aims to have a completely atheist population it would be just that.

[Acriku]

The book holds a different view. You know how movies are.

The society wouldn't be "for atheists only" since this is a hypothetical situation there wouldn't be any others to consider.

I think it would turn out opressive and immoral, and if it really aims to have a completely atheist population it would be just that.

Do you have any data to support this prediction? Also, it doesn't aim to have a completely atheist population, I thought we already agreed that it was already atheist.

[Caid Ivik]

You mean Star Trek? Well, in one episode Kirk rejected Apollon to be his god: "One is enough". or in another they receive radio broadcast of some modern Roman Empire-like state, where someone attacks the cult of light, over which Kirk thinks as "God's light" and "teaching of freedom, love and equality". It isn't as secular as it look like.

[Anathema]

We were talking about Starship Troopers. Sorry for the confusion.

Acriku, of course I can't back that up. It's all just speculation. And if a society is completely atheist there will still be people that turn to religion instead.

[Acriku]

Starship Troopers Caid ;)

Earth, perhaps they will. But most likely a deism of sorts. But of course there is always going to be some kookies out there who'll make some religion because of money, mental delusion, etc.

[Caid Ivik]

Those, who talk they are religious to earn money from it aren't really religious. But if you believe, you won't stop with it unless something wouldn't ensure you it is false. And one religion is true, must be. If no other, then you can call religion also sceptical atheism based on life's lack of higher sense. It has its prophets, leaders, worshippers and sees the Highest Thing in everything it calls valuable.

[Edric O]

Acriku, you do of course realize that this perfect atheist utopia of yours is pure speculation, right?

There has never been a society where everyone held the same beliefs, except totalitarian police states.

[Acriku]

There can be a society with only atheists, which is more possible than a society with only certain theists because you can over time fully extinguish theism from the people, and it simply becomes a mythology like the Greeks had their's. It happened to Greeks, so it's possible it can happen on a wider scale.

[SurlyPIG]

"Acriku, you do of course realize that this perfect atheist utopia of yours is pure speculation, right?"

As is your Communist Utopia. He is entitled to his vison...

Personally I don't see a total atheist nation or atheist Earth happening any time within the next few dozen centuries. A forced state of thought, like all in the world and in history, would be terrible and worthless, since it is forced and not reflective of human progress. And there will always be some religious people left, some of whom would try and convert others.

[Acriku]

An important step is teaching the kids how to think.

[Edric O]

"Acriku, you do of course realize that this perfect atheist utopia of yours is pure speculation, right?"

As is your Communist Utopia. He is entitled to his vison...

Touche. :)

On the other hand, you capitalists should be proud: your utopia has become reality. Of course, since it involves millions of innocents dying from starvation or easily-curable diseases, and hundreds of millions living in misery and absolute poverty, I'd be more inclined to call it a dystopia...

[Acriku]

I doubt capitalism is to blame for all of those things Edric. Our system isn't perfect, but it works. Can't say the same for your communism, but hey you chose it. I also like a socialist democracy, so I'm not a big capitalist.

[SurlyPIG]

On the other hand, you capitalists should be proud: your utopia has become reality. Of course, since it involves millions of innocents dying from starvation or easily-curable diseases, and hundreds of millions living in misery and absolute poverty, I'd be more inclined to call it a dystopia...

All of those countries are dictated communist countries (especially in Africa) who make every decision for their people. We send them grain, they destroy it because its genetically modified. We make wells for them, they aren't maintained. We send money, it's intercepted by the government and used to buy weapons.

[Edric O]

Come on, Ace, are so really so naive? Do you honestly think that those authoritarian governments (not only are they not communist, but they don't even pretend to be communist! Where the hell did you get that glaringly obvious lie from?) have any degree of sovereignty left?

Welcome to the real world, Ace! CORPORATIONS are in charge here, not their puppets who pretend to be governing.

[SurlyPIG]

Communist = dictatorships. They are one in the same. Well, not quite. Communists are the dictators that every little dictator out there aspires to be. Successful, manipulative, unchallenged, powerful, followed without question or doubt, in total and absolute control. The Lenins and the Stalins are everything that the Kim Jongs and the Saddams aspire to be.

You live in a fantasy world of Rage Against the Machine finger-pointing blame-asigning scape-goating propagated nonsense. How the heck does Exxon control North Korea? How does British Petrolium control Sierra Leone? How does Microsoft control Somalia? How does AOL Time Warner control Sudan? It's all jealousy-motivated lies. Better to deflect blame than to deal with a problem, eh Edric?