On evolution

[Warlord Ripskar]

Landsraad was talking about the evolution of fruit in connection with monkeys and how he didn't understand this.

In the past the fruit of the trees may have been more like nuts, when they ripened they simply fell to the ground. If they grow here they will be under the shade of their own parent tree and will die off because they don't get enough sunlight or water.

If a monkey comes along and begins picking the nuts it can carry them away from the parent tree where they have a better chance of surviving.

Which nuts are the monkeys going to take, the sweet ones or the sour ones?

It's the same choice you make when you decide do I want chocolate or sprouts?

If the fruit have hard shells that are difficult to crack the monkey won't bother with them and go for the ones with soft skin.

So the monkey is choosing fruit which are soft and sweet. These are the ones that get carried away and grow into new trees. There will be more trees grown from soft sweet seeds so the fruit produced by the trees in futre will be softer and sweeter whilst those that are hard or sour are ignored by the monkeys and rot at the bottom of the tree.

[Acriku]

Well, first of all, all fruits when enough ethylene gas escapes, ripen and fall to the ground, and decay and decompose - or picked up by an animal. The seeds can still be dispersed, whether an animal carries it off to eat it and excrete the seeds or leave the core with the seeds on the ground, or it decays and seeds (some, probably not all) can lay dormant or germinate (depending on the trigger, e.g. light, heat, etc).

If a fruit is sour, then it probably won't have animals eating it - few if any - so it must have another way of dispersing seeds, such as falling. If a fruit is sweet, by the conversion of starch to glucose, then it will have animals eating it and dispersing the seeds, continuing the process.

If a fruit or nut (like coconut) is hard, it would not completely stop monkeys from eating it - they use tools to crack open food if necessary.

So, life will find a way, or it dies. If the dispersal of seeds is great enough for it to survive in the environment, then it lives on and the genes live on. If it isn't, it either adapts to the situation or dies, until it becomes extinct.

[slaphapy]

well there are some fruits that plants produce in the way they are for a reason. Such as chili... the seeds have capsaisin for a reason, it's so that it will purposely detract certain animals that are sensitive to the heat and don't eat it... one of the natural spreaders of the seeds is a bird, because birds do not sense heat like a human or many other animals do... so the bird eats it with no problem... although humans now have grown to like chili but, the problem is, when we eat a seed from the fruit, chili, we have plumbing, so when it comes out the other end...it does not disperse into an environment for it to grow.

[Warlord Ripskar]

Though we do cultivate the Chilli precisely for its spice qualities.

This generally covers the Gradualistic concept of Evolution though there is the far more...

spectacular method of Catastophic Evolution.

In essence it relies on much the same principles, ie, the annhilation of significant proportions of a population leaving only those best adapted to survival in the prevailing conditions.

In outline a large population with significant diversity is suddenly reduced to a handful of individuals whose own idiosyncracies alter the features of the resultant population.

eg. A group of sheep living in a valley with some individuals forced to live on the hillsides due to population pressure. A catastrophe of some kind wipes out all the sheep in the valley leaving only those on the hillsides who pass on the characteristics of hillside living to their offspring.

This is also known as the boom and bust theory as the population grows till it suffers the disaster then regrows but in an altered form.

[Acriku]

I'd be careful to say that catastrophic events leave the most fit to survive, in the bottleneck effect it leaves random gene alleles surviving the event, if any survive.

[Caid Ivik]

I was wondering about darwinism too. But take for example indian cobra (Naja naja), that deadly snake. What is the purpose of that "OuO" sign on its back? Defense? It is visible only when it stays, and it stays usually with face against the threat. It has no evolutionar reason...

[Acriku]

Don't be so quick to say there is no evolutionary reason. Obviously, it once had a purpose, like our appendix, but it is unknown. Maybe it still has a purpose, but it takes time to realize or theorize of such purposes. This doesn't go against darwinism if that's what you are suggesting.

[slaphapy]

many animals have signs like that one them, if you see bright colors in nature it is usually a defence (believe it or not) because that color means to other animals that it's poisonous... that's why most of the "copy-cat" type of animals are usually copying an animal like that such as the king snake copies the coral snake (those are right ones, right?) anyway for those two snakes just remember, red touches black, friend of jack, and red touches yellow, kill a fellow (there are other variations) anyway, i think on snakes those colors are usually to make it look bigger... because i think you were trying to say it only show when it stands? and that design would look to a threatening animal like a big face, which would make that animal back off (animals aren't as smart as humans ;) )

there is a lizard, i forget it's name, that has a big fin thing on it's neck that it puffs out whenever it is being challenged, or a predator comes near to make itself look bigger... it looks pretty much just like those spitting dinosaurs from jurassic park, except it stands on 4 legs not 2

[Caid Ivik]

Cobra's back sign isn't very bright, but it is there. For no reason. Like the eighth quad of teeth in human mouth. Evolutionar nonsense, which shows not everything is made for adaptation.

[Acriku]

Caid, it isn't evolutionary nonsense. Just because I may not know the significance of it now, doesn't mean there is none. The thing is, if you are going to just point out things you don't know about, and say that it is evolutionary nonsense, don't. If a mutation doesn't hurt its survival, nor help it, but the organism with that mutation lives on, it's not going shed it off like water. It's going to stay until the organism dies out.

[Warlord Ripskar]

Those features are evolutionary remnents. Most evolution occurs because we lose genes not develop new ones. Over 90% of the genetic code for a human is utter nonsence, the 'desert' regions of the chromosomes are the remains of genes that our ancestors had but are switched off in humans. eg. the genes for tails and fur are still there but not turned on. For a mammal we have fewer teeth than the basic set that is standard for all mammals, Horses and cows gone further having lost their canines altoether.

In the case of the Cobra, the pattern on the back of the hood is eye spots, these are useful when defending against multiple enemies so they have difficulty in telling which way the snake is facing.

[slaphapy]

well, humans still have a tail bone, and we still have hair, all over our bodys just not as much as other animals have because it has become something that is not necesary for survival.

[nemafakei]

Of course not everything is perfect, and redundant features remain - but there's no selection process which will remove them, hence they stay.

If everything was perfect, and there were no redundant features, then I'd be questioning evolution more.

[slaphapy]

well i think eventually they will no longer exist in humans, you know they are pretty sure that wales evolved from a land animal, because in the flipers/fins the bone structure is very similar to something like a hand.. but with differences, and that would be a very odd natural bone structure for just a fliper/fin

[Caid Ivik]

Caid, it isn't evolutionary nonsense. Just because I may not know the significance of it now, doesn't mean there is none. The thing is, if you are going to just point out things you don't know about, and say that it is evolutionary nonsense, don't. If a mutation doesn't hurt its survival, nor help it, but the organism with that mutation lives on, it's not going shed it off like water. It's going to stay until the organism dies out.

Your opinion isn't primary factor of truth, Acriku, maybe if you don't know what you should say about it, then be quiet. Sign on cobra's back was done by straight outer act, quick mutation in range of a few (or one?) generations. Same we can say about most other specifics. For example human mind...

[Acriku]

Quick mutations? As opposed to slow ones? ::)

And what example is the human mind from?

[Miles]

Cobra's back sign isn't very bright, but it is there. For no reason. Like the eighth quad of teeth in human mouth. Evolutionar nonsense, which shows not everything is made for adaptation.

I agree, not everything evolves for adaptation. Sexual selection also plays a role. I don't think a peacock's feathers serve any survival purpose, but it seems to drive the females wild.

A Cobra's backsign could be selected for by several means. Sexual selection could account for it. Or, as Slaphapy said, it could be a threatening sign as a defense mechanism. The point is, that it does conceivably serve a purpose.

The Eighth quad of teeth in humans is evidence for evolution and against creation. If God had created us, then why didn't he make our jaws big enough for all our teeth? Is is some kind of divine joke? Evolution, however, explains it very easy. As our jaws became smaller through evolution, they no longer could accomodate all our teeth.

[Acriku]

And why do men have nipples, conscerning creation story? Or is that part of the Big Plan? Hehehe ;)

[slaphapy]

I doubt anything could possibly change within just one generation... that's a lot of changing in genes.

I would assume that the sign on the back of a cobra is most likely a defense mechanism. as an example of this, there is a moth (or a butterfly..dunno which) that has colorations on the wings that look incredibly like the eyes of an owl, with little feather looking colors and everything. and it has huge black spots, one on both wing that look like a pair of eyes.. so if the butterfly or moth feels threatened or something, it shows it's wings to whatever is going for it.. and they think "o **** an owl, i better get out of here or it will eat me" (note: animals don't have a very big brain ;) ) so in using that method, it's able to survive by making an animal think it's the other animal's predator. but there is no way to know for sure that any animals actually have these markings on them for that exact reason, even though it's been observed, the only way to tell would be if we could communicate with them, which as some could probably guess, is impossible. ;)

one kool thing i like is how bacteria adapt to resist antibiotics. has anyone here ever wondered why they give you so many pills or shots or some form of antibiotic, yet you feel better before you take them all?

well, if you don't take all of the medication, there are still some bacteria left with the genes to get passed the certain type of antibiotic (but only to a certain amount) and if you stop taking the medication before you take it all, then they will pass their information on to their duplicates, there is two ways(i have heard of) that bacteria reproduce, one is simply by spliting in half, the other is they can actually reproduce by...erm.. well ... with a partner.. let's just say that ;) but obviously different then most things do.. they usually only do this when they need to pass information on how to survive something that is trying to kill them (such as an antibiotic) to another bacteria, so that the species will live on!

hehe, i think that's enough for now, some of you are probably getting board and thinking i am crazy

[Acriku]

Bacteria can undergo transferring of genes and then split(the one getting the genes), not really sex though. In lamen's terms maybe :P Did you know that viruses benefit bacteria in that they help the transfer of genes? Makes you feel left out of the party huh?

[slaphapy]

actually I did not know that.. wow i learn something new every day! ;D

i didn't exactly say they have sex.. just that they do have a partner.. which is about as close as it gets for bacteria