Lenin...

[Edric O]

Democracy may not be perfect, TMA, but it is far better than anything that came before it. In a similar way, my vision of communism is also not perfect, but better than anything else we had before.

You are saying that creating a perfect system is impossible. That's obvious, and I completely agree. But creating a perfect system is not what I want to do. I only want to create a better one.

[Caid Ivik]

And was Lenin creating a better one? There was no sign of democratization or improvement on human rights. Just a civil war, erarizing and slaughteries.

[Anathema]

As oposed to say, a pseudo democracy lead by corrupt czarists?

[Edric O]

Yes, Caid, Lenin was obviously at least trying to create a better system. Unfortunetaly, he died...

And I say it again, the civil war wasn't his fault. The Whites started it.

[Caid Ivik]

If you think that disagreeing with communism means declaration of war... Kerenskij made a counterattack against Petersburg, but in most other towns commies had to fight to set their rule as first.

[Edric O]

If "disagreeing" involves shooting those you disagree with, then yes, it IS a declaration of war...

[Caid Ivik]

Can you put me some reasons why do you think opposition fires as first? That is a problem of whole communism: everyone has to agree with it, otherwise it wouldn't work in full scale.

[Edric O]

Can you put me some reasons why do you think opposition fires as first?

Could it be because they were, ummm... THE OPPOSITION? When was the last time the established government started a civil war? ::)

That is a problem of whole communism: everyone has to agree with it, otherwise it wouldn't work in full scale.

Non-sequitur. This conclusion simply does not follow from the definition of communism. It is just plain false.

[Caid Ivik]

They opposed communism, so they were an opposition of communism. Communists had to conquer nearly all cities, including Moscow, to set their rule. Of course Kerenskij defended his government. His rule was only provisional, preparing democratic votes. And because elections wouldn't be sure way to set communism, Lenin revolted and made his own "votes", where his commissaries were "helping" citizens to vote the right side.

[TMA_1]

lol lenin was pretty damn ruthless. Stalin loved lenin and looked up to him as a father. Lenin died later of a stroke, but was ambitious and twisted some of lenin's ideas. Lenin was on the outside a leader for the people. On the inside though, he just wanted to use people for his own causes. The worst kind of evil is that which is hidden in good intentions. Though phabian socialism sounds wonderful, it will be abused. I dont think forcing people to work in labor camps and creating liquidation centers is freedom. Something that lenin was the thinker of. Stalin was not the only evil one.

[Ice_Cube]

Hello!! Lenin had some great ideas (ever wonder why he has his own heated coffin?)and he could of made it work but when Stalin came into power instead of Trotsky, thats where it all went wrong.

[Caid Ivik]

Ha, wasn't it Trockij, who made Dzerzinskij what he was, or who orderred murdery of Nicolaus II. and his family? Stalin was a primitive gangster, but Trockij was even worse: cool-headed intelligent tyran. As Lenin or Mao...

[Edric O]

Stalin was a treacherous dog who betrayed the communist cause and ruined the Russian people.

Lenin saw Stalin for what he truly was, and tried warning the Party, but his letter was intercepted by Stalin's agents and Lenin died soon afterwards.

Trotsky also saw Stalin's treason, but only after Stalin came to power and started his murderous regime. Trotsky always opposed Stalin's terror, and for this we was forced to flee the country. In the end, Stalin had him assasinated. But before that, Trotsky wrote extensively about Stalin's regime and why it was NOT true communism.

For example, read The Revolution Betrayed

[Caid Ivik]

So, you stand with Trocki's hidden terror instead of Stalin's mass "cleansing"? I don't see much difference. Anyway both sit in jail before revolution for murders. Also, Lenin was de facto dying slowly after three brain attacks for a year. Maybe from regret. Other theory is that he died from a sifylis, what really Stalin couldn't get on him.

[Edric O]

Hidden terror? Why do I get the feeling that you're making this up? ::)

And of course they spent time in jail - they were communists! The czar hated communists, so he regularly had them jailed. He could do whatever he wanted, remember?

[SurlyPIG]

The communist leaders were mostly parallel to me. Stalin was worse than lenin but only through his methods, not principally, ideally, or methodogically worse whatsoever. Stalin, Lenin, Brezhnev, all the same to me. Kruschev was slightly different and Gorbachev much more so but other than that they're all on the same plane. Stalin epitomized communism. He murdered, he stripped people of their families, their property, eliminated freedom of speech, dictated the nature of public opinion and more. What's not communist about that? From his perception, it was all 'for the good of the people'.

[Anathema]

Except that none of the wealth went to the people as it should, but all to the army and the space program. Stalin only cared about keeping himself in power and militairy supremacy.

Kruschev was infinitely better then Stalin. He exposed Stalin for the murderous tyrant that he was, and tried to save the Soviet union by several reforms, though largely unsuccesful, he at least wanted to make things better.

[Caid Ivik]

All wanted to have things better, Earthnuker. Just Moscow intervened it everytime: First in Hungary and DDR, then in 1968 Czechoslovakia.

Hidden terror? Why do I get the feeling that you're making this up? ::)

And of course they spent time in jail - they were communists! The czar hated communists, so he regularly had them jailed. He could do whatever he wanted, remember?

By hidden terror I mean night assassinations and "vanishing" of precisely chosen opponents. Stalin made a mass cleaning, which hit many times by randomness. Anyway, both were jailed also for MURDERS, not only for political work (politically were jailed mostly dekabrists and active anarchists). Only commies jailed everyone, who told something against them.

[Edric O]

The communist leaders were mostly parallel to me. Stalin was worse than lenin but only through his methods, not principally, ideally, or methodogically worse whatsoever. Stalin, Lenin, Brezhnev, all the same to me. Kruschev was slightly different and Gorbachev much more so but other than that they're all on the same plane.

Ace, the difference between Stalin's ideas and those of Lenin (and Trotsky) is immense. You should read some of their writings (Stalin didn't write much, but it was enough to make his points clear). Trotsky would have made a great leader, one who truly followed the ideals of communism. He was about as different from Stalin as you can get, but he never got the chance to show his worth.

Stalin epitomized communism. He murdered, he stripped people of their families, their property, eliminated freedom of speech, dictated the nature of public opinion and more. What's not communist about that? From his perception, it was all 'for the good of the people'.

You don't know the least thing about communism if you think Stalin had anything to do with it. He only epitomized totalitarian dictatorship. Although he wasn't quite as good at murdering and crushing freedom as Hitler, he got close enough.

No one other than the people themselves has the right to decide what the good of the people is. That is one of the basic tenets of communism, which Stalin utterly betrayed. (Lenin didn't exactly pay a lot of attention to it either, but then again, he only got to rule during very troubled times)

By hidden terror I mean night assassinations and "vanishing" of precisely chosen opponents. Stalin made a mass cleaning, which hit many times by randomness. Anyway, both were jailed also for MURDERS, not only for political work (politically were jailed mostly dekabrists and active anarchists). Only commies jailed everyone, who told something against them.

Caid, that is quite simply a lie. You don't have a single clue what the czarist dictatorship was like. Even the slightest dissent was severely punished.

Trotsky was FRAMED with many things, but I don't remember anything about murder. Maybe you were referring to Stalin.