Dune and Science.

TMA_1 · February 9, 2003

Does Dune portray good scientific standards in the series? Are there many mistakes in your opinions? I find it very wonderful in this area, especially with ecology. I mean frank was an ecologist so it figures.lol what do you guys think?

Vanguard3000 · February 9, 2003

Well, as you said, Frank was an ecologist at one time, so most of the stuff he explains is true. Also, a lot of the technologies, etc are not explained thoroughly enough to be disproven.

Take the ornithopters for example. I was at the Lansraad forums once, where someone said Orni's were impossible. But no one took into account the 20+ thousand years of metallurgical (i.e. "fanmetal", shigawire) and mechanical (Holtzman fields) research that would have ocurred.

TMA_1 · February 9, 2003

Actually there is an ornithopter project going on right now. They made a prototype that actually works. The things arent amazing looking at all but a person can fly one. I will have to look for the site for ya.

Inoculator9 · February 10, 2003

The Ornithopter was actually invented by Leonardo de Vinci. The science, IMO, is sound. If the wings are streamlined enough and are backed up by some sort of engine (as ornithopters are) there wouldn't be a problem.

Vanguard3000 · February 10, 2003

I know Da Vici "invented" the idea of one, but to my knowledge, he never actually built one.

Interestingly enough, he also designed the "wheel lock" generation of firearms about 100 years before it was actually built and used.

And TMA, if you can find that article, I'd love to read it. It sound pretty neat.

Inoculator9 · February 10, 2003

Yes, de Vinci did build one, however it was only a small model I believe.

Vanguard3000 · February 10, 2003

That was more of a model and, if I recall, it didn't work. It was just too heavy.

Inoculator9 · February 10, 2003

No, he built a working miniature, unless I''m horribly mistaken.

Vanguard3000 · February 10, 2003

There have been some limited successes with ornithopter flights over the centuries. The first working ornithopter was made in 1870 by Gustave Trouve. Thanks to the help of an internal combustion engine and gunpowder, it was able to fly 76 yards (70 meters).

From http://www.riverdeep.net/current/2001/04/040301_ornithopter.jhtml .

A few of the sites I found said that da Vinci didn't even build a model of his ornithopter, which surprised me.

Inoculator9 · February 10, 2003

Well, I got that information from several textbooks and my science teacher :-

Caid Ivik · February 10, 2003

Idea of ornitopther is much older (i.e.Daidalos and Icarus story). But it seems to be done. Problem was in material, which wasn't never so flexible and still hard as today. One Canadian was last year working on ornitopther from composites, flying tests should be this year. That will show if it has at least one advantage against helicopter. If it has so, then we should fly once as on Dune...

Inoculator9 · February 10, 2003

Does that Canadian guy have a website or anything?

Vanguard3000 · February 10, 2003

Well, I got that information from several textbooks and my science teacher :-

I'm not saying you're wrong. If you got the info from a teacher AND a textbook, than you're most likely correct.

Caid Ivik: That's what I mean. In the Duniverse, there are many new types of materials to use. Fanmetal, IIRC, was very lightweight yet strong.

Caid Ivik · February 10, 2003

Yes, Vanguard. But it's already invented now, so we don't have to wait 25000 years ;D

Vanguard3000 · February 10, 2003

I heard you (well, read you). I was just referring to your "problem was the material" statement. You know, to stay on topic and all. :D

TMA_1 · February 11, 2003

A lot of these metals are formed through crystal growth and whatnot. Silica is pretty light on the whole scale of matter, but how is it smolded or grafted exactly with metals such as aluminum, iron, boron, titanium blah blah. ?

I know its just a book, but its fun to think about this stuff.lol

Vanguard3000 · February 11, 2003

As far as I know, alloys are made simply by mixing two (or more) metals together. Alloys like bronze (9 parts copper, 1 part tin) and brass/orichalcum (copper and zinc) were of course used in ancient Greek times.

However, my bet is that steel (iron, with 2%-6% carbon) is not simply made by mixing two things, as carbon is a non-metal.

TMA_1 · February 11, 2003

no, if you read the appendix, it talks about certain metals like plasteel which is made with metal and laced with crystal somehow. how would that be done? I mean in a stable fashion. seems like it would just seperate and not, well, alloy together.lol

exatreide · February 11, 2003

The Wings would have to be light and strong, it would take termendus stress to "flap" the wings, maybe change them by small amounts, but i doubt it would fly as a bird. not to mention that would require alot of power.

If you look a few pages back in the duniverse you might be able to find it....

http://www.ornithopter.net/

i know, you all love me. :)

Vanguard3000 · February 11, 2003

Well, I would assume that these crystal-metals would be made in a similar fasion to steel (although perhaps more complex, considering we don't have these materials today). I assume by crystal they mean a non-metal (NB: Diamond is a form of carbon).

Thanks, Ex. It looks pretty neat. I'll have to read the site after school, though.

Caid Ivik · February 11, 2003

Wow, nice orni, like from Dune II ;D

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