A calm debate

[Acriku]

So now you deny microevolution? Or is this argument right now useless?

[emprworm]

we werent talking about micro-evolution (adaptation). we were talking about one species becoming another species.

[Acriku]

So let's see here. Laying it all out, let's make a hypothetical species A, and a huge geographical change occurred, separating species A in two groups, or more possibly. The two groups, 1a, and 2a, now live in totally different environments. 1a lives in tropical forestry, and 2a lives in the snowy deserts. 1a over thousands of years has gone through thousands, possibly tens of thousands generations, racking up the number of mutations. 1a is forced to adapt to the new climate, new food, and new predators. So 1a adapts to it by growing longer arms and legs to jump from tree to tree, getting food easier and getting away from predators easier. The only food they can eat safely is found high in the trees, so they have to adapt stronger legs and arms to climb that high, and the right kind of fur to blend in with the surroundings. Now 2a is getting along by staying together, to keep the heat, but they adapt to the colder environment with thicker fur, and a bit more fat. They need food to eat, and the only food out there is fish so they would adapt, say, long claws to claw them in the frozen seas and lakes. Now comes a human from another dimension, gathering a male 1a species, and a female 2a species, and tries to mate them. Millions of years have gone by, and the two species have become so complex within their own species, that the ability to reproduce together has been destroyed. Now, the human makes them two different species, clearly different than each other. Now can this not happen?

[emprworm]

nice attempt, Acriku, but there is no evidence of any of that.

humans in south america- tropical, wet, hot.

humans northern siberia. cold, desolate.

ten thousand generations go by....

and?

they are still humans, fully capable of inter racial relations, though they are seperate races, they are the same species.

your story is a nice story. kind of like the story of Buddha. its a faith story, not a scientific one.

[Acriku]

Emprworm, evolution takes helluva long time. This situation didn't take thousands of years, it took millions upon millions upon millions! Long time eh?

[emprworm]

you assume that. you have no idea.

belief and faith. thats all it is.

you believe, i believe. we are no different.

[Acriku]

I don't think you understand it, therefore dismiss it.

[emprworm]

oh i understand it allright.

i understand you have never seen it

i understand you assume it

i understand you think Micro therefore Macro

i understand you have faith and belief in something unproven

i understand

[Acriku]

You see? You do not understand.

Because we HAVE seen evolution

Because we do NOT assume evolution.

Because I do NOT think micro therefore macro, although that's what it does.

Because I do NOT have the same faith that is used in religion, and it is proven.

You do not understand.

[emprworm]

"Because we HAVE seen evolution"

really? like what? which species have wee seen evolve into another species? Please tell me...or will we go through another 50 pages of this?

"Because we do NOT assume evolution."

which species have wee seen evolve into another species? Please tell me...or will we go through another 50 pages of this?

"Because I do NOT think micro therefore macro, although that's what it does."

which species have wee seen evolve into another species? Please tell me...or will we go through another 50 pages of this?

"Because I do NOT have the same faith that is used in religion, and it is proven."

which species have wee seen evolve into another species? Please tell me...or will we go through another 50 pages of this?

"You do not understand."

which species have wee seen evolve into another species? Please tell me...or will we go through another 50 pages of this?

[Anathema]

You guys are getting a little repetive ;)

[nemafakei]

Let's try again, Empr...

Why can't things develop so much genetically over time that it is impossible for them to breed? I don't quite understand your problem with this idea.

Please do not simply respond "There's no proof it has happened".

I am asking hypothetical questions, as should by now be obvious to you (If not, read more carefully).

Please respond why (ie the logical reasons) you believe that a species split up into two different environments for a long time (ie as long as it takes) without any interbreeding between groups, each improving slowly over time to suit the different climates cannot at some stage become genetically incompatible for breeding fertile offspring?

[emprworm]

i'm just weary of the circular lunacy.

its a computer program:

10 "MACRO IS PROVEN"

20 "Ok, fine and dandy. please show me the evidence of one species evolving into another"

30 "ERRM...WELL WE HAVE A FEW CELLS BANGING AROUND THAT HAVE CHANGED! THATS PROOF!"

40 "Oh really? No, its not."

50 "YES IT IS."

60 "All you have proven is that life, which is intelligently designed, is capable of limited adaption."

70 "MACRO IS PROVEN"

80 "Ok, fine and dandy. please show me the evidence of one species evolving into another"

90 "ERRM...WELL WE HAVE A FEW CELLS BANGING AROUND THAT HAVE CHANGED! THATS PROOF!"

100 GOTO 40

[Acriku]

OOO, I'm offended by that horrible program that depicts me as a cap-using nonsensical brat ::)

[emprworm]

i liked that program. i wonder if it will run under windows

[nemafakei]

Aha. I think I've worked it out. I must be on Empr's ignore list.

[Acriku]

That would make sense Nema. Emprworm, make sure Nema is not on the list ;)

And have you responded to my link to proof of macroevolution yet? I haven't seen one.

[emprworm]

huh? I am sstill waiting for Nema to respond to my previous massive posting answering all his questions:

http://www.dune2k.com/forum/?action=display;board=2;threadid=7938;start=240#msg120843

why should i entertain another list w/o a response to those?

[Acriku]

I debated with 3 or 4 other theists and I held my ground, surely you can do the same against 2 or 3?

[emprworm]

lol, nice little strawman acriku. as if you are winning this circular debate.

until you show me the proof, don't say you have any.

[nemafakei]

Because Acriku has provided a response to the first root problem, and I have responded to the second. Because my list was merely there to work out why Empr didn't understand/agree with evolution. I have found the main problems, and I want to get these.

Because I posted only one list of qs; the rest are replies to your answers to my first.

Infeed, you didn't answer the second question, so I have had to restate it in exact detail so you cannot avoifd answering it.

[Acriku]

I never said I won, I said I held my ground, as in nobody won. Now again...

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html

Is that so hard? And check this out:

http://www.talkorigins.org/features/whales/

Explains evidence for whales evolving from mammals.

[emprworm]

I never said I won, I said I held my ground, as in nobody won. Now again...

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html

Is that so hard?

is this so hard?

http://www.dune2k.com/forum/?action=display;board=2;threadid=7938;start=240#msg120722

[nemafakei]

The point is, that when a mutation occurs in reproductive organs (fairly common in communities of small creatures, less so for us), then a new variation is introduced into the species. Notice that we know that variation within species has been maintained for observations of species throughout the ages (no, I can't remember the authors offhand, there was a classical one which I definitely should know - try to use what is known as "trust" on this).

I'm not expecting you to run before you can walk - I want you to agree that the basic principles can occur before even trying to prove one species evolution.

[emprworm]

ok nema, in your next post, without referencing me to a one hundred thousand character document, or a list of 1,344 questions, pose the questions you intend.