A Trick In Knowledge?

[emprworm]

not necessary. all that is needed is to demonstrate the consistency of one God which by default automatically negates any potential contender.

Why prove the earth is NOT every possible geometric shape except round, when all we need to do is show the earth is round, and that automatically eliminates an infinite amount of other shapes. your request is rediculous and that is the kind of thing I use to dismiss other Gods. People who define a god as irrational (like your request) is something I can automatically reject as absurd.

[Acriku]

Well our references didn't get us anywhere lol.

[emprworm]

heh. nice little circle it was.

8)

very hard to corner the worm

i have given considerable thought to these issues over many years. not to say you haven't either or that i've cornered you, i'm only speaking for myself.

[Acriku]

I have probably 3-4 years of experience in all of this. So call me the newbie of it all ;) But I do with what I have.

[TMA_1]

lol seems like people have already made up their minds. ;)

[DukeLeto]

Chritiansseems to think they're better than everyone else, have you all noticed that?

[Acriku]

Yep I've made up my mind...I'm a creationist! Hehe wouldn't that make some soil their pants.

[emprworm]

Chritiansseems to think they're better than everyone else, have you all noticed that?

no.

[TMA_1]

well many christians have a problem with self righteousness, but we all do.

[emprworm]

honestly TMA i dont know any Christian that thinks he's better than everyone else- or anyone for that matter.

i know a lot of christians too.

not to say that there aren't people like that out there, I just don't know any nor have i met any.

[Acriku]

It takes some egotistical balls to say I am going to heaven and you're not. I am going to heaven because I followed the rules and accepted Jesus Christ, you didn't and you're going to hell. I am better than you because if you were better than me you wouldn't be going to hell, and if you were the same then we wouldn't be going to different places.

[emprworm]

It takes some egotistical balls to say I am going to heaven and you're not.

Heaven is a christian place. Obviously someone who is not a Christian wouldn't even believe in it let alone want to go there. If I was a Buddhist and I said "I am going to Nirvanna and you're not" What on earth does that have to do with me thinking I'm better than you? If you told me "As a believer in Alpha Centarui Religion, I get to go to Alpha Centauri, sorry you dont get to go."

I respond with "Uh, ok. No problem"

Yet I dont equate that to mean "As a believer in Alpha Centauri Religion, I get to go to Alpha Centauri BECAUSE I AM A SUPERIOR BEING TO YOUR REPUGNANT INFERIOR STENCH!"

If you get all offended, that is YOUR problem Acriku. If you interpret such statements as meaning you are inferior, that is something you need to work out in your own heart. They mean no such thing.

I am going to heaven because I followed the rules and accepted Jesus Christ, you didn't and you're going to hell.

personally i dont believe in hell the way that most christians do, but this belief says nothing about superiority/inferiority- especially when the same path is offered to you. If you were truly seen as inferior, you would have no such opportunity.

I am better than you because if you were better than me you wouldn't be going to hell, and if you were the same then we wouldn't be going to different places.

well no one said we are the same. and were not. yet no one says they are better than you either.

false conclusions based upon a faulty premise.

[sneezer3]

personally i dont believe in hell the way that most christians do, but this belief says nothing about superiority/inferiority- especially when the same path is offered to you. If you were truly seen as inferior, you would have no such opportunity.

Indeed it don't say anything about superiority. All you wanna do is keep them from going there.

personally i dont believe in hell the way that most christians do,

How come? The bible clearly says there'l be weeping and weling and gashing of teeth.

[emprworm]

yes, weeping and gnashing of teeth. it doesn't say that it lasts eternally.

[sneezer3]

yes, weeping and gnashing of teeth. it doesn't say that it lasts eternally.

What about matthew 25:46 where it says everlasting punishment?

[Acriku]

Empr, you are saying it is a Christian Heaven because you think you are right, that you are in the correct religion, that everybody else is in the wrong religion, or lack thereof. You are correct, everybody else is wrong. You are correct, everybody else is wrong. Nyah Nyah.

[emprworm]

sneezer: i dont feel like retyping all my explanations.

here is an essay I wrote on the subject earlier this summer. It summarizes my entire belief in hell and explains it as well.

enjoy.

I have been a Christian for 12 years and it was at Multnohmah Bible school 6 years ago that I first heard of annihilationsim as a serious subject. My roomate was a senior graduating as #1 in his class, his primary focus being Hebrew. His final paper was an argument for annihilation. I didnt read the paper, but just thought it very wierd that anyone would believe in that. After all, "eternal conscious torment" was always emphasized as being so critical and to refuse it was seen akin to a grevious doctrinal error on par with something heretical like universalism. But then one night, I was reading Col 1 and came to this verse:

15 He F23 is the image R36 of the invisible R37 God, the firstborn R38 of all creation. 16 For by F24 R39 Him all things were created, {both} R40 in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones R41 or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is F25 R42 before all things, and in Him all things hold F26 together

Now, as one who as studied regarding chaos theory and quantuum mechanics in my life, I can tell that scientists today are mystified as to what holds the universe together. Many actually deny cause and effect as being an absolute because they cannot find the "glue" that links them together. Here is an interesting quote by Moritz Schlick:

After the scientist has successfully filled up all the gaps in his causal chains by continually interpolating new events, the philosopher wants to go on with this pleasant game after all gaps are filled. So he invents a kind of glue and assures us that in reality it is only his glue that holds the events together at all. But we can never find the glue; there is no room for it, as the world is already completely filled by events which leave no chinks between them.

What is so amazing about the universe that completely baffles all physicists is how a universe filled with vibrating, rotating, and fast moving tiny particles like a giant chaotic swarm of bees on a micro level has such an ordered and structured appearance on a macro level. What is holding everything in place? Why aren't all the particles in your body- the quarks, the electrons, the protons, the neutrons- why aren't they just scattering? What is actually *holding you together?* God is. At least, that is what I believe. I believe that not just all matter, but ALL EXISTENCE is held together actively (not passively) by God. Imagine an eggshell broken into 5 shards. Imagine that you want to put these shards together to re-form the egg, but you have no glue to hold them. So you take them in your hand, and form the pieces and apply enough gentle pressure to hold them into place. You look at it for a bit then set it down. What happens to the eggshell? It falls apart because you let go. You and I are like an eggshell broken not into 5 shards, but a trillion shards- all put together to form a beautiful rounded shape. There is no 'glue' holding the pieces together- only God's hand. What if God were to "let go" of you? What if God were to "let go" of the universe? It would fall apart into pure chaos, nothing would exist. When I realized this 6 years ago, It dawned on my that everyone who is in hell actually exists, and that they too are "held together" by God. In order for anyone or anything to exist, God's hand must be there to hold it together. This is contrary to the Essene and Greek view that the soul is eternal on its own. I reject this view- nothing in the Bible supports it. Any immortality you have has its source and its sustinance in God. God does not just *create* you, but He *sustains* your existence. Is this not the Biblical view? There is no existence apart from God. It was this moment that I first seriously questioned the notion of eternal conscious torment. Would God's hand be actively holding the existence of people in hell forever? Is Hell not a place where God is not? If there is a place where God is not, then would there be existence in that place?

I asked these questions and decided for the first time in my life, I would go back and look at the passages that spoke of hell from an open point of view.

I am being totally honest with you: I approach the bible without making an *a priori* conclusion, and try to honestly read what it says. And to my surprise, there is indeed a valid argument for annihilation after a period of punishment. Like the concept of predestination/freewill there are ample verses to support both views. I have read some very good arguments for annihilationsim. What strikes me as so odd (and disturbing) is that this view is such a "taboo" yet for some reason predestination/freewill debate is an embraced and community-accepted non-essential. I could list for you here many valid verses for annihilation. I just dont understand why it is such a taboo. The Bible is not as clear as one might think regarding the subject. It is very very clear that this life is all you get. It is very very clear that once judged, there is no going back, and that the second death is ETERNAL, but does that second death entail CONSCIOUSNESS? It is not clear, and most importantly, this should not be an essential. Unquenchable fire does not mean that the fire is unable to complete destroy. It means the fire cannot be put out! A completely different meaning. A fire that is all consuming means just that- it fully consumes. Eternal torment means that the fire is *not* all consuming since there is no point throughout all eternity at which you could say "that fire has fully consumed him" Jesus himself said for us to fear Him who can destroy both the soul and body. Destroy does not mean to "torment". It means to destroy. Eternal punishment does not necessarily mean "punishING forever", it can just as well mean "punishment whos effects are eternal". Paul says in 2 Thes: "These will pay the penalty of eternal R21 destruction, away R22 from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power" There are 2 things here. First, destruction pre-supposes annihilation. There is no logic in saying "in the proccess of being destroyed forever". Such a statement surely seems like a philosophical flaw. You cannot be in the "process of being destroyed" forever simply because if you never reach the point of actually being destroyed, then how can one claim he/she was ever in such a process? Secondly, in that verse paul says away from the presence of the Lord. If this is true, then how can such a person continue to exist? Or do you interpret this as a "manifest" presence? To destroy a building such as the WTC does not mean it cannot be rebuilt. Eternal destruction, on the other hand, is just so clear to me in its meaning: destroyed completely, never to be rebuilt- no pieces left to be put together. Even the PIECES are destroyed, its effects are eternal, and the unquenchable fire FULLY CONSUMES. This interpretation brings more clarity to the differing levels of punishment that Jesus talked about. Simply that some will suffer longer than others before they are destroyed.

The only verse that truly seems to teach eternal consciousness of unbelieving humans (not demons or satan) is Rev 14. However, I learned very quickly in Bible school that you should always be very very leary of formulating doctrine from books of poetry (unless specifically cited elsewhere)- especially Revelation which is so full of imagery. IA quote from an article I read about this verse was fascinating:

"Isaiah describes the fate of Edom in language that is strikingly similar to that of Revelation 14:10. He says:"The streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch, and her soil into brimstone; her land shall become burning pitch. Night and day it shall not be quenched, its smoke shall go up for ever" (Is 34:9-10). As Revelation 14:10, we have here the unquenchable fire, the sulphur (brimstone), and the smoke that goes up forever, night and day. Does this mean that Edom was to burn forever? We do not have to go far to find the answer because the verse continues: "From generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever" (Is 34:10).46 It is evident that the unquenchable fire and the ever-ascending smoke are metaphoric symbols of complete destruction, extermination, and annihilation. If this is the meaning of this imagery in the Old Testament, we have reason to believe that the same meaning applies to the text under consideration.

This conclusion is supported by John

[DukeLeto]

honestly TMA i dont know any Christian that thinks he's better than everyone else- or anyone for that matter.

Ahem:

yes differnt religions have different gods, and they are irrational.

lol, well no matter- its all hogwash

yes as in they believe in an irrational god(s).

since know one knows FOR SURE the answer to whether this universe was created or popped into existence from nothing, we must go only by belief. I choose belief which is most rational. ie: i reject the idea that a guy named Zeus made the universe.

Nothing "I'm right, you're wrong" about those comments. ::)

[emprworm]

Empr, you are saying it is a Christian Heaven because you think you are right, that you are in the correct religion, that everybody else is in the wrong religion, or lack thereof. You are correct, everybody else is wrong. You are correct, everybody else is wrong. Nyah Nyah.

and? what is wrong with that? Acelethal and I are doing that right now regarding discrimination. He sees it one way, I see it another. I think I'm right and he is wrong. Vice versa. Big deal. I seriously hope you dont think I should go around having opinions and thinking im WRONG do you?

Yet even though I think Ace is wrong, I dont think he's inferior...not at all. Cmon Acriku what you are saying is rediculous. I emphatically think your statement is WRONG and you are STILL a decent guy.

Take that! ;D

[emprworm]

plenty of I'm Right...You're WRong LEETO.

Big deal. So is it your view that you are WRONG about everything and everyone else is right?

Kind of bizzarre view you have there.

Well, I still think you're wrong. But that doesn't make you inferior.

[Acriku]

Empr, do you not know what thinking your right and thinking the other is wrong means? It means you think you are superior in this matter, maybe not wholly superior, but in the matter of religion you feel you are superior to the nasty scum disease-ridden infidels for example. You think other religions are irrational, therefore INFERIOR, therefore the followers are INFERIOR.

[emprworm]

Empr, do you not know what thinking your right and thinking the other is wrong means? It means you think you are superior in this matter, maybe not wholly superior, but in the matter of religion you feel you are superior to the nasty scum disease-ridden infidels for example. You think other religions are irrational, therefore INFERIOR, therefore the followers are INFERIOR

it means that to you. I dont know how firm you are in your opinions Acriku, but I would refuse to debate someone that was wishy-washy in his/her points. I dont like debating spongy-minded panzies that are so cowardly they cannot take a stand for something they BELIEVE IN

BELIEVING in something means you actually BELIEVE it.

If I debate Ace about discrimination, or Edric about Capitalism, I fully expect them to BELIEVE and STAND BY their arguments. If I am debating someone who is so politically correct and fragile and too scared to make a stand for their beliefs because someone might get "offended" then I will not waste my time with that person.

If you expect people to suddenly say

"Oh, You're SOOO RIGHT acriku! I am sooo wrong. how could I be such an idiot and have a belief? I should have just said 'well I believe it' but deep down I really dont believe it. I should have lied to you and told you I believe it but really I didn't. Because I really believed it, that meant that I did not believe you, and you got all offended and your feelings were hurt. Ohhhh, I'm soooo sorrrrry. I hwut your itty bitty feeweeings. Ahwwwwaaahhh. next twime I wiwl mwkae shuawh I dont reawey beweeve whut I say"

a bit sarcastic yes, but I am extremely serious about it. What is ruining society is all the politically correct hogwash. Ironically all those so-called 'open minded people' think that guys like me are WRONG.

So they eat their own idiocy.

[sneezer3]

Empr, do you not know what thinking your right and thinking the other is wrong means? It means you think you are superior in this matter, maybe not wholly superior, but in the matter of religion you feel you are superior to the nasty scum disease-ridden infidels for example. You think other religions are irrational, therefore INFERIOR, therefore the followers are INFERIOR.

NO.

you do not think they are inferior. just misguided. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO THINK SOMETHING IS INFERIOR FOR IT TO BE RIGHT. It might be that way for you. but not for us.[speaking for emprworm]

You might think of it like that. but if somebody or something <Some religion>is irrational or misguided does not make them inferior. it makes them wrong. If you add a 1 math question wrong out of 50 and somebody else gets all 50 right that does not make them inferior to you

[/speaking for emprworm]

[emprworm]

Thinking you are wrong is NOT thinking you are inferior.

Again, I think Edric is wrong about his views on capitalism. And not just wrong, but I think Edric is IMMENSELY PASSIONATELY ABSOLUTELY WRONG.

and I think he's one of the greatest guys on the forum,

i wouldnt hesitate to have him as a guest in my home any day.

you too acriku.

[Acriku]

Sneezer, do you know what inferior means? It means less in order, rank, quality, value, etc. If someone gets one wrong and another gets them all correct, of course that person's paper is superior to the one's who got one wrong! He is above them in rank, order, and value of the paper, but does that mean they are any less of intelligence? NO. Inferior doesn't have to mean stupid or less of a human, you and emprworm are the ones being politically correct! A person wins the spelling bee, he is superior to all other contestants in this aspect, because he is above in rank, order, and in value of the trophy. God is superior to us. Jesus is superior to us. Jesus is perfect, never wrong. Therefore, since he is right in everything he does, he is superior. Therefore if you are right in any aspect, you are superior to everybody else. You win an olympic game, first place, you are superior to anyone else who tried to win.

And I have no idea where you got that response from, but it smells of something fowl. I do standby my arguments, but only if I think I am correct! Edric thinks his arguments are correct until someone might correct him on something, ACE does the same thing, we all do it. And what does this part of argument have to do with anything conscerning believing or not with their arguments? I do, you do, sneezer does, so who are these people that are spongy-minded panzies that are so cowardly they cannot take a stand for something they believe in?