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Fey

[WIP] Heighliner Tileset

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Edit: The tileset is pretty much done, aesthetically and functionally. See these posts for download links to the test maps:
https://forum.dune2k.com/topic/27842-wip-heighliner-tileset/?do=findComment&comment=396114
https://forum.dune2k.com/topic/27842-wip-heighliner-tileset/?do=findComment&comment=396145

This post has some pointers for mapping:
https://forum.dune2k.com/topic/27842-wip-heighliner-tileset/?do=findComment&comment=396120

And here is a quick run through the second test map with some commentary on the designs and gameplay:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILGKxw1fWyo

The original OP follows.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey there, folks! Uhh, I'm trying to work up a Heighliner tileset. Here are some WIP images:
1: https://prnt.sc/lzblae
Here you can see the Mass Deposit / Base Platform idea from the Caladan spriteset in effect, which would allow this idea to work without the use of any .bin or .r16 editing whatsoever. Orange "rock" craters will appear on Base Platform, which simulates the elements of Arrakis. Funds would be gathered from pads around these Mass Deposit structures using the infinite Spice .ini setting, which is particular to each map. The Atreides Refinery-like building in the tileset has been recolored to look more like the traditional Spacing Guild colors used in other D2k campaigns and my own. I'd also like to do Mass Deposit buildings using the other factions' styles.

I've put the Concrete Foundation in a more neutral light because it ain't on Arrakis anymore. Nevertheless, the old Concrete Foundation image is kept for certain buildings like Mass Deposits. Those can be placed far beyond Base Platform and still look good as the concrete under theme is nice and bold. If you suppose all the Concrete Foundation would look better normalized as the gray D2k sort, please say so and I'll see what I can do to change that up.

I did some work on @D2k Sardaukar's Repair Pad sprite. It has a Starport pad and has been colored in line with traditional Spacing Guild colors. Thanks for the base sprite, mate! I hope you like what I did with it! Anyway, there are several "Launch Pads" each with a different Freighter on it. These have the obvious use of being impassable terrain that the player will be able to explore to trigger a Unit Spawn event. Just like the maps in Emperor, the player can pick up Combat Tanks or something suitable for his faction. There are no smuggler or mercenary Freighters, so please do let me know if those are desired and I'll add them as well.

One final change you can see in that image if you've followed the Caladan tileset WIP is that I've moved the Base Platform edges up to the very end of the tile. On the Caladan tileset, this would allow the Base Platform to extend over beaches and into the water, allowing for more flexibility in map design as the original tileset had edge / corner / turn sprites partway into the tile, ending abruptly with grass on the other side. In the Heighliner tileset, this will normalize the spotlight sprites between Base Platform bulbs and four-direction spotlight tower doodads.

2: https://prnt.sc/lzjfah
Here's a comparison image of old Concrete Foundation versus new under a Launch Pad.

3: https://prnt.sc/lzdeuk
The main terrain of this map will be simply the bridge tiles colored in a few different ways. Like Base Platform, they'll have edges if only to draw patterns on the ground and make the appearance of the map a little more interesting. Base Platform can have its normal edges or it could end abruptly where other sorts of platforming begin. Terrain should be memorable and the player shouldn't get totally lost in the sameness of terrain. Aside from using Launch Pads and Mass Deposits as landmarks, the lighter, darker, or normal platforming will allow a mapper to zone the map in certain ways.

The end of the platform will pour over into a black void. Although it would be nice to have multiple levels behind the actual map like they did in Emperor, it's graphically not exactly possible with D2k's tilesets. The platform edge will have blue bulbs underneath them for a little more color. Hypothetically, mappers could make some dock peninsulas containing a Launch Pad or something.

The 'cliff wall' of the tileset will be the bridge edges recolored a few different ways. I'm not sure how I'll do the corner / turn sprites yet, but if anyone has any ideas... or wants to help out with that, be my guest.

I'm not really a good artist. I don't draw professionally or even as a hobby, but I have done spritework rarely. I prefer to edit existing work rather than draw up my own. Even the Storm Lasher building sprites were a combination of various turret sprites, the Atreides Silo, and parts of an Ordos Wind Trap. I did change the direction the Atreides Silos were facing, add the special colors to the tower, custom-tailor the plasma leaks to where the fires were set to appear, I did the wires... uhh... stuff. So, just wanted to put this out there that this is something I'm working on. And, I wanted to say that if anyone has other ideas, please let me know so I can attempt them! And if anyone more talented in spritework could draw up any other 32x32 tiles, like anything based on Starcraft's space platform tileset, I would be grateful for the collaboration.

I want to do Geidi Prime and Draconis IV tilesets too. Probably a recolor of Caladan to a more red/black scheme with some more industrial buildings, maybe some oil spills from KKND, I dunno. Draconis IV's tileset would abuse the hell out of the existing ice sprites already in D2k, I'm sure.

Anyway, I hope the recent efforts towards spritework have inspired some of y'all! Maybe we can collaborate and make some really awesome tilesets together. I'll work on this Heighliner thing when I can. If no one else wants to help out, it's cool, I'll get something serviceable done eventually, but I'll check back when I can in case someone else wants the GIMP2 file I'm working with or has a contribution to submit.

Edited by Fey

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I already saw some of those images, but it's a very interesting tileset.

I like the grey modification for concretes (second link, right imagen); 

On the third link there is a building at the top of mountains/rifts? Dunno if you know about that.

When you are finish doing all the stuff you can show a very small done with those tilesets; don't need to be a playable map, just a small map done just to show how will look, at least on the editor.

 

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2 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

I already saw some of those images, but it's a very interesting tileset.

I like the grey modification for concretes (second link, right imagen); 

On the third link there is a building at the top of mountains/rifts? Dunno if you know about that.

When you are finish doing all the stuff you can show a very small done with those tilesets; don't need to be a playable map, just a small map done just to show how will look, at least on the editor.

Aye, the current plan is to keep the gray D2k Concrete Foundation for the Launch Pads and the other sort for the Mass Deposits. I guess we'll see how it looks in-game?

The Launch Pad on the mountains? Yep, that's there just to grab the Spacing Guild colors for use on the blue bulbs under the platform edge sprites.

I'll be sure to work up a little demonstration map when this thing is released. The tileset is intended to be put to use in S16V2 as well.

I've been making some progress. Here's more info:
https://prnt.sc/m0oxq1
There are now nine Launch Pads in the tileset. They contain Atreides, Ordos, Harkonnen, Imperial, smuggler, mercenary, Guild, and Ix Freighters respectively, and the last one is vacant. The colors are the bold sorts seen in my custom colors.bin and mercs are notably orange, at least for now.

Two styles of Mass Deposit can be seen in the top right, one Atreides and one Ordos. Both have Guild colors overlaid. I plan to recolor the Mass Deposit resource pads in the top left to Guild colors as well. And, I'll work up something in the Harkonnen style.

In the bottom left, some finished platform edge sprites can be seen. Still working on the other directions, but the ones facing south have those blue bulbs I just mentioned.

That four-directional light doodad has been recolored and placed on each sort of platform tile. I don't really have any other doodads to add, but if I find I have the space for them, maybe I can work a little something extra up.

There are infantry-only tiles in the bottom right corner of that screenshot, one on Base Platform and one atop a bold concrete tile. I might add more tiles for each sort of non-buildable platform. I'd love to add some sort of sink in the platform for infantry only like Emperor had on its Heighliner maps.

Finally, I worked up corner sprites for the platform walls. Lined up with normal wall segments, they look fine. I still need to do corner segments for those, then finish up platform edges and the tileset should have functional 'cliffs.' Impassable terrain that can be arranged as you see fit. Because of how the west / east 'cliff' wall tiles look, an extra tile was needed where one of the support beams was removed. You can see at the very top of the west-east 'cliff' wall columns, there's the bottom of another support beam cut off there. That's what I removed.

By no means a professional job, but I'm doing what I can with the existing sprites.

https://prnt.sc/m0ovdu
Just some spotlights out on the platforming. It's a decoration that's easy to work with and should help to reduce similarities in map appearance if placed carefully...

https://prnt.sc/m0oysa
Here are the normal appearances of the Atreides- and Ordos-style Mass Deposits.

Edit: Got the Harkonnen style one done.
Guild colors: https://prnt.sc/m0qlbr
Normal colors: https://prnt.sc/m0qlus

On an unrelated note to the tileset, but absolutely related to my mod and its modified .r16 file, I wonder if D2k Sardaukar would be up for drawing a Golden Lion Barracks sprite. His Repair Pad looks great. Hey mate, if you're reading this, get back to me! Even if you decline, I'd love to hear back from you. And if you accept, I'd be most appreciative for whatever effort you could put in to such a sprite!

Edited by Fey

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All looks good.

For the draconis part maybe you can do a mix between the preexisted ice tilesets, dunno if flipping the tile would fit right; the RA snow, or even warcraft 2 (at least for the buildable area); no idea.

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20 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

All looks good.

For the draconis part maybe you can do a mix between the preexisted ice tilesets, dunno if flipping the tile would fit right; the RA snow, or even warcraft 2 (at least for the buildable area); no idea.

Great!

Flipping the tile definitely wouldn't look right. D2k's cliff walls have shadows and specific dimensions. Maybe with enough tweaking in the hue / saturation settings, the ice effect can be replicated in normal rock cliff tiles.

The 'Caladan' spriteset looks serviceable. I guess stealing the snowy tileset from RA2 might come up with decent results too.

I've got the primary spritework done all around so now I'm polishing stuff up.
https://prnt.sc/m0y0m3
https://prnt.sc/m0y2qt

I'm trying out a color swap with the default platform. Dune already has that bright orange tint everywhere. I swapped some of the platforming to blue, muted it a bit, and then tried a similar color scheme on the 'cliff' walls, with green-tinted support beams for better visibility. The cooler color scheme is definitely easier on the eyes, especially in juxtaposition with the Base Platform, but since it's a WIP, I have to ask: How's it look? Better or worse than the old?

Maybe I can keep the bright orange tint for the normal platforming around the Base Platform and stick with the blue / green scheme on other sorts of platform. The center-left corner sprites look good there, but all the others don't quite mesh.

I also added some distortions to the Base Platform similar to the distortions in the rock or concrete when a structure is placed atop it. They're faded, but present at least.

Edit: I've got a working prototype. Here's a small section of map with a few buildings on Base Platform:
https://prnt.sc/m10gn7

Three blue platform pathways lead on to the Base Platform. Lights point out on the blue platform pathways. The edge of the platforming has blue bulbs at the bottom... might look better on top? Structures can be placed right up to the very edge of the Base Platform. Base Platform has faded edge tiles which slow down any units moving over them and cannot be built on. A raised platform containing a Missile Tank and a Siege Tank guards the two top-left pathways. And, on the side of the thinner bottom-right pathway, an infantry-only garrison with a Grenadier on it is within firing range of enemy forces passing over that way.

This sort of design is how we can expect the terrain to be arranged using this tileset.

I also took a couple of in-game screenshots with the new tileset:
https://prnt.sc/m11hgw
https://prnt.sc/m11ibl

The spotlights are a little bit bright, an easy correction, but we can see how the Concrete Foundation looks. A unit spawn event was added on discovery of the Launch Pad in the second screenshot and the units that spawned appeared in the tiles right beside the Harkonnen Freighter.

Edited by Fey

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@Cm_blast - Figured you'll want to hear about this!

By designing a little test map, I discovered and fixed some more bugs in the tileset. The tileset can be considered complete now, so I'm releasing it along with a sample map. If I've achieved what I hoped to do, it's an artificial platform tileset meant to be used for Heighliner maps. It features:
1. No modding requirements. No files are overwritten when using this tileset!
2. Three colors of non-buildable platform besides the buildable Base Platform.
3. Rock craters on Base Platform. Resource gathering is done through nodes.
4. Launch Pads with six different sides' Freighters parked on them.
5. An empty Launch Pad where reinforcements can be dropped.
6. Spotlights and platform edges for decorative purposes.
7. Several different styles for Mass Deposits.
8. Impassable walls / raised platform.

Sample map details (full map preview, design discussion, etc.) below:

Spoiler

Full map image:
https://i.imgur.com/BL3YOVa.jpg

Some in-game screenshots:
https://prnt.sc/m1fqir
https://prnt.sc/m1fe2e
https://prnt.sc/m1fp7y

Strategy:
Because this is a demonstration map, design decisions are still being refined. We're not sure what problems may arise from node-based resource gathering yet, and balancing the economy must be done differently because of this Mass Deposit system. Therefore, the map will play differently from normal D2k maps and may be undertuned or overtuned.

I tried to draw this map including lots of different concepts. There are moments where unit pathing will be screwy because there are multiple thin paths to one destination, and there are other points where units will simply funnel through a linear pathway. There are LRA garrisons covering narrow bridges. At the player's main base location, there's a wall right in the middle of it, impeding construction but also offering a nice, defensible position right in front of the bridge where all the enemy units will come. And, there is a defensible position in the center raised platform where no Base Platform can be found, but it's a desirable location to hold because it contains a Mass Deposit and gives you room to strike into the enemy bases.

The purpose of executing so many different concepts was to test the tileset fully. It's structurally different from your typical rock-and-sand maps. Base Platform feels a little cramped, but that might be due to the unit pathing. There's a decent amount of room to build everything and the player can expand to the northwest starting area if a little more space is required.

----------------------------------------------------

Let's move on from the technical analysis and actually talk about beating the map.

You'll begin in the top left corner. Make your way onto the Base Platform and clear out the Barracks and Wind Traps. With the power cut, the Rocket Turrets up ahead will be powered down, allowing you to get your first reinforcements of the map - four heavy Combat Tanks and two Devastators - and making destroying the Gun Turrets much easier. You'll receive an MCV when you clear the area around the empty Launch Pad in the northeast corner of the map.

You'll get only 70 credits per unit, totaling to 490 credits each time a Harvester returns to the Refinery. Furthermore, Harvesters will push each-other off Mass Deposit pads, so ideally you'll have two, maybe three Harvesters on each pad depending on distance they need to drive / fly. Capturing new Mass Deposits will help your economy immensely, but first you have to take them from the enemy.

Your starting position has a raised platform covering the bridge. Position your Devastators there until you've got your Heavy Factory up, and then I recommend setting up some Gun Turrets there and putting Siege Tanks behind those. This will give you excellent protection against the Ordos and Harkonnen attackers. You'll get some more reinforcements for each sort of production structure you build. I also recommend building an Outpost since it will reveal all Mass Deposits and Launch Pad locations on the map.

Beyond the bridge is three Rocket Turrets spread around the center platform. You'll mostly run into Harkonnen Troopers here, so have a healthy amount of Raiders or Light Infantry to handle them. If you can get some long range artillery set up on the Mass Deposit's platform, you'll be able to easily fend off attacks from any angle. And, you'll force enemy Harvesters to go elsewhere. If you want the other Rocket Turrets in this area powered down, continue south across the narrow bridge and destroy the Harkonnen Wind Traps you'll find. This will allow you to position LRA in place of the Harkonnen Rocket Turrets where they can provide great cover for your armor as they push into the enemy base of your choice.

There is another batch of units you can gather on your way to the Ordos base. Before you hit the Ordos Gun Turrets, turn north and there will be a Launch Pad with an Ordos Freighter docked on it. For discovering that, you'll receive five light Combat Tanks and one Deviator.

The Ordos may be easier to tackle first because of those reinforcements and because there's only one path to their base. You'll find another Atreides Freighter across the bridge between their bases, and that one contains two Siege Tanks and four medium Combat Tanks. If you set up a Refinery or two around this location, the Harkonnen will have an extremely hard time reaching them.

If you want to tackle the Harkonnen first, you'll find there are two pathways into their base. If you have a large group of tanks, send them carefully over the bridge; some may decide to turn and try to loop around the second way if you send too many at once. Going directly into their base from the middle platform will take you to their Mass Deposits. Attacking from the rear on the south end of the map will give you easier access to another Atreides Freighter containing two Sonic Tanks and four Trikes.

You need only destroy all enemy structures to beat the map. Good luck!

Download link:
HeighlinerTilesetTest.zip

The player is mercenary. To install, simply copy the data folder and merge with the data folder in your main D2k directory, then launch the map using the Mission Launcher. Please let me know how it looks in-game!

Edited by Fey

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1 hour ago, Fey said:

Hey, that looks like a RA "into the base" type of map, with a few corridors/rooms playable and the rest it's black; that's interesting.

1 hour ago, Fey said:

Really looks cool; I am sure I will use it for the future at some moment, just like I said, even if it isn't (at least at this moment) a "planet" some kind of inner base or inner cave would be interesting.

1 hour ago, Fey said:

Download link:
HeighlinerTilesetTest.zip

The player is mercenary. To install, simply copy the data folder and merge with the data folder in your main D2k directory, then launch the map using the Mission Launcher. Please let me know how it looks in-game!

I will try it in the near future; I won't apply your expensive stuff, I just want to give the map a quick and how it plays and feels, if you don't mind. I let you know when I try this.

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1 minute ago, Cm_blast said:

Hey, that looks like a RA "into the base" type of map, with a few corridors/rooms playable and the rest it's black; that's interesting.

Really looks cool; I am sure I will use it for the future at some moment, just like I said, even if it isn't (at least at this moment) a "planet" some kind of inner base or inner cave would be interesting.

I will try it in the near future; I won't apply your expensive stuff, I just want to give the map a quick and how it plays and feels, if you don't mind. I let you know when I try this.

:D Aye, I was thinking the same thing. Maybe some sort of installation on Arrakis' surface. All you'd need to change is the generic tile on the outside; instead of a pure black void tile, some sort of platform, probably a different color from the one you'd use for the main corridors the player's units would be on.

No problem at all. I disabled my mod while getting the test map up and running, so that should work out.

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2 minutes ago, Fey said:

:D Aye, I was thinking the same thing. Maybe some sort of installation on Arrakis' surface. All you'd need to change is the generic tile on the outside; instead of a pure black void tile, some sort of platform, probably a different color from the one you'd use for the main corridors the player's units would be on.

If you still have some room to spare, you may place a dark-brown tile to simulate (rock of the cave) or a grey one, like an internal bunker and you only see walls or the top part.

Which, since you are done that; maybe you can try to rip the graphics from the Red Alert game. Like this one map
https://youtu.be/K1KGI5vfgcc?t=7962

Don't look like would require to rip plenty of tiles here, just floor, walls, corner-walls and the black-yellow warning. Well, and the computer labs; so you can, as in RA, capture a CY (or IX or whatever) and the next mission playing a mission with this set up, even if you can't build stuff on it.

But anyway; you have black there and don't look bad at all, so your tileset it's good enough right now.

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12 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

If you still have some room to spare, you may place a dark-brown tile to simulate (rock of the cave) or a grey one, like an internal bunker and you only see walls or the top part.

Which, since you are done that; maybe you can try to rip the graphics from the Red Alert game. Like this one map
https://youtu.be/K1KGI5vfgcc?t=7962

Don't look like would require to rip plenty of tiles here, just floor, walls, corner-walls and the black-yellow warning. Well, and the computer labs; so you can, as in RA, capture a CY (or IX or whatever) and the next mission playing a mission with this set up, even if you can't build stuff on it.

But anyway; you have black there and don't look bad at all, so your tileset it's good enough right now.

Ohh, I see how they did that.

Aye, since it's meant to be on a Heighliner it's not like the black simulates the space beyond the wall. Rather, it's where the platform drops off. Like I said, I'd put some faded sub-levels in the map like Emperor had so there's more depth to the space ship, but that wasn't an option due to tileset limitations. Still, we can construct a whole level of a Heighliner, or part of it at least (the pathways extend off the map; the platform doesn't hover, it's part of the structure of the ship and is built into something), and that can be given more context through terrain structure and briefing / in-game text.

I didn't put the raw image file in this zip like I did for the Caladan spriteset, so you'd need to extract it from the .r16 to edit with it. Sorry about that! I'll sort it later if you don't do it by then. Also, it has no editor settings, so painting rock / sand / whatever doesn't work. There aren't preset tiles. I dunno how to do that. Klofkac would need to configure the tileset for the editor, or whoever knows how to do that. The tileset can still be used, but there aren't any shortcuts until that's done; you need to pick tiles out from the tileset and drop them on the map. Hopefully the sample map makes it easier to see what might go where.

Anyway, if you do try the map out in the meantime and see how it looks, please do drop another reply here. I'd love to hear how it looks, and plays, in-game. :)

Edited by Fey

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6 minutes ago, Fey said:

I didn't put the raw image file in this zip like I did for the Caladan spriteset, so you'd need to extract it from the .r16 to edit with it. Sorry about that! I'll sort it later if you don't do it by then. Also, it has no editor settings, so painting rock / sand / whatever doesn't work. There aren't preset tiles. I dunno how to do that. Klofkac would need to configure the tileset for the editor, or whoever knows how to do that. The tileset can still be used, but there aren't any shortcuts until that's done; you need to pick tiles out from the tileset and drop them on the map. Hopefully the sample map makes it easier to see what might go where.

Probably a few rock/sand tiles used for the painting tool are just present on all the tilesets on the same positions; same with the Corners and everything so the only true way to do something similar would be moving your tiles to match the position, but maybe that's too much work.

7 minutes ago, Fey said:

Anyway, if you do try the map out in the meantime and see how it looks, please do drop another reply here. I'd love to hear how it looks, and plays, in-game. :)

Sure.

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7 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Probably a few rock/sand tiles used for the painting tool are just present on all the tilesets on the same positions; same with the Corners and everything so the only true way to do something similar would be moving your tiles to match the position, but maybe that's too much work.

That's correct. Buildable rock tiles, concrete, rock / concrete distortions when a building is atop them, sand after Spice is harvested from them, thin Spice, and thick Spice are always in the same places, which is why there are several tiles of one sort in one place in this tileset. Fortunately, there is a LOT of room to do other things with a tileset even with the need to reserve so many tiles for other things.

d2k_BLOXHILN.bmp

Here's the tileset's .bmp file. For the convenience of anyone following this thread: To map with it, do the following:
1. Move the .bmp file above into your D2k editor > tilesets directory. This will allow the map image to be displayed in the editor.
2. Move TILEFEY1.bin from the test map download into your D2k editor > tilesets directory. This will display map attributes properly.
3. Navigate to your D2k editor > config directory and open tilesets.ini.
4. Add the following lines:

[BLOXHILN]
image=d2k_BLOXHILN
tileatr=TILEFEY1

And there you go. You can now load the Heighliner tileset up in the D2k editor and map with it! Just remember to enable Infinite Spice in the custom .ini settings.

Once again, since it's a new tileset and the editor ain't configured to know how to provide shortcuts for specific parts of it, the terrain must be selected manually from "Open Tileset" in the editor: https://prnt.sc/m1k4pc

Since I'm already intimately familiar with the tileset, I'll list some important or hard-to-see tiles here:

Spoiler

Resource gathering tiles: https://prnt.sc/m1k6u4

Spoiler

Note that you cannot place Mass Deposit pads on their own! You need that single tile of bold concrete at the very bottom of the tileset to be placed, and then you need to place "Thick Spice" on top of it in paint mode. This will make resource gathering work. For aesthetic purposes, I suggest making use of the Mass Deposit silo tiles in the top right corner of this screenshot. And, for the purpose of protecting a Mass Deposit, the highlighted infantry-only bold concrete tile on the center-right of this screenshot will allow a player to garrison the structure with infantry.

Basic Base Platform tiles: https://prnt.sc/m1kaa1

Spoiler

Red: Main buildable tiles.
Green: Spotlights. Buildings can be placed atop these tiles - it will simply appear as though the light was turned off.
Blue: Corners & turns. The unique properties of Base Platform fade to normal platform here, so units will be slowed down.
Yellow: Edges & lights. The unique properties of Base Platform fade to normal platform here, so units will be slowed down.
Purple: Platform light doodad. This tile is impassable.

It may be possible to make use of thin Spice and sand tiles within confined areas of Base Platform, that might look okay, but don't place any Spice Blooms. A Thick Spice tile could form and that will look like a Mass Deposit pad. You can find the sand tiles near the top of the tileset.

Platform edge tiles: https://prnt.sc/m1k8bc

Spoiler

Red: Corners.
Green: Turns.
Blue: Void.

The corners are a little hard to see, but missing them will look funny. There are blue, black, and white sorts of corners and turns, and the void tile is what fills the map by default.

Vertical wall differences: https://prnt.sc/m1kdwc

Spoiler

Due to the shape of the vertical wall, the support beams may cross certain tiles into others, which can look funny if mismatched. When placing walls, make sure you use the sort pointed out by green arrows for continuous walls. The sort pointed out by blue arrows is for abrupt turns where there is no support beam in the above tile.

I hope all of the above is convenient for you as you try mapping with this tileset. :)

Once again, still looking for review, so if you've played the test map or tried mapping with the tileset, please provide feedback here if possible! Thank you.

Edited by Fey

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I played; I need to say that I love how it looks. Everything fits really good; True that the map it's a bit too narrow and hard to navigate, but that's more related by the design of the map than the tilesets themselves.

In Just a few minutes it was clear what area could be builded and which not. Anything not orange was not buildable.

I like that "landing pad" or whatever you called it to drop reinforcements there; or course you are still limited to the original behaviour so when you dropped 3 quads the carryall started to do weird things (since, unlike a delivery, units don't move); maybe you could at least open that landing area to 5 tiles or even the 8 directions, so that repair-landing-pad it's a unbuildable area that still looks as a building which can be used as area to drop stuff in. Nobody would place buildings on top of if and you can drop a maximum of 12 units (or 8 vehicles); that even would work for the AI, you see that, you see him dropping stuff in and, although you can't destroy that, it's always the option to attach that to an outpost or a high-tech as the building that control the reinforcements.

By the way; there is a spike or whatever it's called, on the Ordos repair pad; that only infantry tile; since you place it on top (or behind) the building will transform into a normal tile after the building it's destroyed; this one:
1846466836_Sinttulo.png.f7996dd04db00517d5629bfb4d8daaf9.png

Either way, good job with this tileset; I will totally use it at some point.


About the map itself, just has your style, the capture objetives than, onces that's done, the enemy can't defend anything more; although I was using original values, had lots of problems with the money; two refineries were not enough, even controlling the mining area to the left (I placed a ref without concrete there just to see if all still looked fine) helped but wasn't still not enough; at this point I sell and rebuild some refs because a very bad placement (harversters blocking each other) and I lost 1 ref at some point, so I had, I don't know, 12 harvs for only 3 refs;

Finally I took the control of the mining area of the south and, with a 4º ref; the income was already good enough to build non-stop and doing orders (I was already doing a few orders, always on discount to save some money).

The hardest part it's when you build a ref but don't want that harvester to move into the neares deposit but another one; since you need to click on top of that "spice" to give them the order, but since another harv was there or I wait, or I move that harv 1 tile away and order both to harvest at the same time.

Half of these are just stuff that happen on the vanilla game so nothing you can really do; and, like I said before, a baseless map or just a low tech level could do the trick (the mass deposit could worth much less to ensure that you invade enemy with other deposit) to not feel the map so hard to navigate.

 

On another thing: if you look into the tileset folder on the editor you can see there is a .ini file per tileset; You can check that because there are "[Fill_Area_Rules]" and "[Paint_Tile_Groups]" with groups as "sand, rock, dunes" and presets.

I guess you can change things there to make it appear "orange bridge" "blue bridge" "walls" or whatever you want to group, sameas with the presents; you can even look there how appears the letter and what tiles(?) are assigned.

I have no idea what most of those lines or numbers means, but Klofc can inform you about that easily.

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1 hour ago, Cm_blast said:

I played; I need to say that I love how it looks. Everything fits really good; True that the map it's a bit too narrow and hard to navigate, but that's more related by the design of the map than the tilesets themselves.

In Just a few minutes it was clear what area could be builded and which not. Anything not orange was not buildable.

Aye, as a prototype it was a little rough around the edges. Now that we have an example map to work with, we have a better idea of what to do and what not to do when mapping with this tileset!

The smallest path was two tiles while the largest path was five. Would you say the five-tile paths were an okay size, or were the three- or four-tile paths operable?

The one-tile paths leading to those LRA garrisons don't count because they're one-way.

The important part is that the tileset looks good! And I'm very relieved to hear that you like how it looks. :D

1 hour ago, Cm_blast said:

I like that "landing pad" or whatever you called it to drop reinforcements there; or course you are still limited to the original behaviour so when you dropped 3 quads the carryall started to do weird things (since, unlike a delivery, units don't move); maybe you could at least open that landing area to 5 tiles or even the 8 directions, so that repair-landing-pad it's a unbuildable area that still looks as a building which can be used as area to drop stuff in. Nobody would place buildings on top of if and you can drop a maximum of 12 units (or 8 vehicles); that even would work for the AI, you see that, you see him dropping stuff in and, although you can't destroy that, it's always the option to attach that to an outpost or a high-tech as the building that control the reinforcements.

I'd love to open it up, but it looks kinda funny because of those domes around the top side.

I have an idea... how about something like this?
https://prnt.sc/m1n7dm

Say I move the top right domes a little further right, leave those tiles the way they are... uhh... maybe see if I can move those little pipe things somewhere else. Could be like five directions vehicles could leave the Launch Pad from. Think D2k Sardaukar would be up to adjusting the sprite?

I'm still hoping he'll be up for doing a Golden Lion Barracks sprite too. It's probably not practical in a tileset, but for my mod... :D

1 hour ago, Cm_blast said:

By the way; there is a spike or whatever it's called, on the Ordos repair pad; that only infantry tile; since you place it on top (or behind) the building will transform into a normal tile after the building it's destroyed; this one:

1846466836_Sinttulo.png.f7996dd04db00517d5629bfb4d8daaf9.png

Either way, good job with this tileset; I will totally use it at some point.

Oh yeah! I tested that and it seemed to still work as an infantry-only tile, but I didn't know it would get craters too. Well, that's a good mistake to make on the prototype map...

Please do! It's wonderful to know it'll go to use elsewhere. D2k is a lot of fun, but the rock-and-sand tilesets don't leave too much to work with in the way of going other places!

Do the different sorts of infantry-only tiles look alright in the places I dropped them? I figured having one for either sort of Concrete Foundation would be desired.

1 hour ago, Cm_blast said:

About the map itself, just has your style, the capture objetives than, onces that's done, the enemy can't defend anything more; although I was using original values, had lots of problems with the money; two refineries were not enough, even controlling the mining area to the left (I placed a ref without concrete there just to see if all still looked fine) helped but wasn't still not enough; at this point I sell and rebuild some refs because a very bad placement (harversters blocking each other) and I lost 1 ref at some point, so I had, I don't know, 12 harvs for only 3 refs;

Finally I took the control of the mining area of the south and, with a 4º ref; the income was already good enough to build non-stop and doing orders (I was already doing a few orders, always on discount to save some money).

The hardest part it's when you build a ref but don't want that harvester to move into the neares deposit but another one; since you need to click on top of that "spice" to give them the order, but since another harv was there or I wait, or I move that harv 1 tile away and order both to harvest at the same time.

Half of these are just stuff that happen on the vanilla game so nothing you can really do; and, like I said before, a baseless map or just a low tech level could do the trick (the mass deposit could worth much less to ensure that you invade enemy with other deposit) to not feel the map so hard to navigate.

I actually removed my mod while designing this map! I played through it on normal difficulty and only used... I think two Harvesters per deposit? On my first attempt, I used more Harvesters and that did not work out at all. Less Harvesters or more pads per Mass Deposit would be good. Something like this...
https://prnt.sc/m1nbol
https://prnt.sc/m1nc45
https://prnt.sc/m1ncs6

Multiple pads per Mass Deposit might solve a lot of problems with both the economy and unit pathing. And, remember, the whole "Mass Deposit" idea was just an idea! If you want those buildings to contain Spice or even just scraps, make it a hundred credits per blob or make it only ten, you can do whatever you want with it. :P

Come to think of it, Spice may be valuable, but you could just construct your units and structures with the raw materials gained from Mass. Maybe in war they're worth about the same
?

Oh, and, how did the distortions in the Base Platform look when you placed your Refinery without Concrete Foundation? Good? Little too transparent, not enough?

Anyway, yeah, I suspected my own economic problems were mostly due to my unfamiliarity with unmodded D2k. My colors were still modded, but the game was back to normal, just FYI.

1 hour ago, Cm_blast said:

On another thing: if you look into the tileset folder on the editor you can see there is a .ini file per tileset; You can check that because there are "[Fill_Area_Rules]" and "[Paint_Tile_Groups]" with groups as "sand, rock, dunes" and presets.

I guess you can change things there to make it appear "orange bridge" "blue bridge" "walls" or whatever you want to group, sameas with the presents; you can even look there how appears the letter and what tiles(?) are assigned.

I have no idea what most of those lines or numbers means, but Klofc can inform you about that easily.

Aye, I saw that but I wasn't sure how to work it at all. If Klofkac could give me some insight on how, I'd see what I could do for sure! And if you have any more ideas about what to change, please don't hesitate to add to what you've already said. All the feedback is quite helpful. :D

I'll get the new Base Platform fitted for the Caladan spriteset. That should be good too.

Edited by Fey

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37 minutes ago, Fey said:

ye, as a prototype it was a little rough around the edges. Now that we have an example map to work with, we have a better idea of what to do and what not to do when mapping with this tileset!

The smallest path was two tiles while the largest path was five. Would you say the five-tile paths were an okay size, or were the three- or four-tile paths operable?

The one-tile paths leading to those LRA garrisons don't count because they're one-way.

The important part is that the tileset looks good! And I'm very relieved to hear that you like how it looks. :D

4-5 tiles for moving on some areas it's require, it's too easy to the infantry yo block with their small bodies and eveyone start going weird things. Some times even the 3 tiles are decent but once 2 enemies are moving on that area your units start doing bad stuff.

So, at least 3-4 tiles around the base and 4-5 on the areas where more people will move. you still can use the 2-3 for very small bases or a few passages not that used.

37 minutes ago, Fey said:

I have an idea... how about something like this?
https://prnt.sc/m1n7dm

Say I move the top right domes a little further right, leave those tiles the way they are... uhh... maybe see if I can move those little pipe things somewhere else. Could be like five directions vehicles could leave the Launch Pad from. Think D2k Sardaukar would be up to adjusting the sprite?

Yes, if you can move the staff you, at least, can make a 5 around to deploy stuff, where "B" it's blocked and "D" deploy:
B  B  B
D     D
D D  D

That still would look good, if you can move a bit the right thing on that sprite, it's just that a reinforcement of 2 units, unless a combat tank or a missile tank the reinforcement it's not really worth. 5 would be enough. 5 Quads, 2 combat tanks + 3 Raiders. 3 8 infantry/troopers, etc. That would be acceptable.

37 minutes ago, Fey said:

I actually removed my mod while designing this map! I played through it on normal difficulty and only used... I think two Harvesters per deposit? On my first attempt, I used more Harvesters and that did not work out at all. Less Harvesters or more pads per Mass Deposit would be good. Something like this...
https://prnt.sc/m1nbol
https://prnt.sc/m1nc45
https://prnt.sc/m1ncs6

Don't need to do that. If the income it's hard you can increase the money recieved a bit and that's it. or just even fastening the time require to pick up that "spice" so more harvs can stay on the same mass deposit withouth pushin each other, but either way, it's more a "more refineries required" that anything.

Even my Frank CAmpaign, that "water of life" battle 2 refineries placed literally 1 tile away to the unlimited spice it's not enough to sustain a 100% quotes full of production AND ordering from the starport, that's why at least a third ref it's required; so here it's the same, more refineries help, it's just that since the area to build was small there isn't too much room to place 4 refineries unless I sell the hight tech or the outpost.

But in a map with 2 mass deposits in a safe area (enough to produce units), but for attacking the enemy base which requires building faster other 2 mass deposits elsewhere; the high-tech become a must have if there isn't any other place near to build the refineries, and sending harversters on driving it's a bad idea unless you have a 100% control of the different paths (but you can even set a map to make an area literally unreachable by walking or something like that).

Either way; the map it's fine right now, you even used the reveal map to make things more easy to look at since scouting here it's a bit hard (enemies blocking and everything) plus the sight of those frigates to get extra units.

I have problems because the way I place a ref 3 harvs were enough to block the refinery entrance; so I sell and placed in another area, but then the enemy destroyed my ref and I rebuilded, so at that point, which I already have 5 harvs, that made a total of 7. When I build a third ref on the left area I tried to move a few harversters, but you know, they like to go whatever they please.

once I have 4 mass deposit controled the economy was overflowing already (4 refinery aswells). I could do "thousand" or orders withouth running out of money, but I was already buying stuff on discount instead building (thus saving money) and with 4 refineries (and going into 4 different mass desposits) I had bewteen 2000-3000 money, building a combat tank, a quad and some troopers and the money still was on 2000; so I only have problems because at first I only started with 2 refs/pods; then I was forced to deploy in the safe area to the left and, then to the south area.

If you ever place more mass desposit then instead recurring to the high-tech and carryalls I will just simple build more refineries instead and I wouldn't need to expand my base.

Plus, in a side note, this it's a tech 5 of map; if this map would be a tech 2, those 2 mass deposit would be enough (maybe not for non-stop building or 3 barrac 3 light factory); but that souldn't be required anyway; and with a tech of 3-4 a third mass deposit/ref would be enough.

It's just that tech of 5, to buy plenty of stuff you require a good amount of money, but that also makes the player to not build stuff for the sake of wasting money.

So, in short; You don't need to increase the mass deposits at all; just because my money went low doesn't mean that it's not enough, but I should build the stuff I need not just filling every queue possible.


By the way ; I saw Harkonnen Harvs going into the Ordos area; I don't mean that central part, but the Ordos side. (at the bottom).

37 minutes ago, Fey said:

Oh yeah! I tested that and it seemed to still work as an infantry-only tile, but I didn't know it would get craters too. Well, that's a good mistake to make on the prototype map...



Do the different sorts of infantry-only tiles look alright in the places I dropped them? I figured having one for either sort of Concrete Foundation would be desired.

Didn't you made already some maps with starports placed on sand-unbuildable area that explode early or need to protect? or maybe was another guy.

Either way, if you place a building on the sand and explode I think those tiles just get the "you can build here" and the crates are formed.

The infantry-only looks fine;

Edited by Cm_blast

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3 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

4-5 tiles for moving on some areas it's require, it's too easy to the infantry yo block with their small bodies and eveyone start going weird things. Some times even the 3 tiles are decent but once 2 enemies are moving on that area your units start doing bad stuff.

So, at least 3-4 tiles around the base and 4-5 on the areas where more people will move. you still can use the 2-3 for very small bases or a few passages not that used.

That sounds good. I'm sure that after we've got some more maps of this sort out, we'll have a better idea of what we're doing.

3 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Yes, if you can move the staff you, at least, can make a 5 around to deploy stuff, where "B" it's blocked and "D" deploy:

B  B  B
D     D
D D  D

That still would look good, if you can move a bit the right thing on that sprite, it's just that a reinforcement of 2 units, unless a combat tank or a missile tank the reinforcement it's not really worth. 5 would be enough. 5 Quads, 2 combat tanks + 3 Raiders. 3 8 infantry/troopers, etc. That would be acceptable.

Or, heck, even 4 units? How would that be? Like this:
B  B  B
D     D
D B  D

So the pipes can remain where they are, but the other stuff around the structure's sides can be relocated a bit. I could do five, I guess, I'm just thinking what'd look best.

3 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Don't need to do that. If the income it's hard you can increase the money recieved a bit and that's it. or just even fastening the time require to pick up that "spice" so more harvs can stay on the same mass deposit withouth pushin each other, but either way, it's more a "more refineries required" that anything.

Even my Frank CAmpaign, that "water of life" battle 2 refineries placed literally 1 tile away to the unlimited spice it's not enough to sustain a 100% quotes full of production AND ordering from the starport, that's why at least a third ref it's required; so here it's the same, more refineries help, it's just that since the area to build was small there isn't too much room to place 4 refineries unless I sell the hight tech or the outpost.

But in a map with 2 mass deposits in a safe area (enough to produce units), but for attacking the enemy base which requires building faster other 2 mass deposits elsewhere; the high-tech become a must have if there isn't any other place near to build the refineries, and sending harversters on driving it's a bad idea unless you have a 100% control of the different paths (but you can even set a map to make an area literally unreachable by walking or something like that).

Either way; the map it's fine right now, you even used the reveal map to make things more easy to look at since scouting here it's a bit hard (enemies blocking and everything) plus the sight of those frigates to get extra units.

Yeah, that makes sense. I also used the greater-distance Carryall numbers in this map. Did you use any Carryalls, and if so did that work out? Harvesters would drive a longer distance before requesting a Carryall and any units attempting to repair would also go a significantly higher distance before calling for pickup. Might as well kill two birds with one stone, right? Gotta test how that increased distance feels.

Aye, and the reveal maps were there to help show off the tileset some more too. :D The guaranteed reveal map triggers are around areas you'll want to go through at some point when you get there, and the reveal maps triggered by building an Outpost reveal useful locations like Mass Deposits and Launch Pads.

I suppose having two pads on one Mass Deposit, or even three, might not be so bad if you need to provide a little more potential for resource gathering at a certain location. Like, two pads at the center MD on this map would make the location more valuable, might be nice, uhh... that kinda thing. And especially if the Harvesters return less credits than usual! I'd be willing to try it out in a future map.

3 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

I have problems because the way I place a ref 3 harvs were enough to block the refinery entrance; so I sell and placed in another area, but then the enemy destroyed my ref and I rebuilded, so at that point, which I already have 5 harvs, that made a total of 7. When I build a third ref on the left area I tried to move a few harversters, but you know, they like to go whatever they please.

once I have 4 mass deposit controled the economy was overflowing already (4 refinery aswells). I could do "thousand" or orders withouth running out of money, but I was already buying stuff on discount instead building (thus saving money) and with 4 refineries (and going into 4 different mass desposits) I had bewteen 2000-3000 money, building a combat tank, a quad and some troopers and the money still was on 2000; so I only have problems because at first I only started with 2 refs/pods; then I was forced to deploy in the safe area to the left and, then to the south area.

If you ever place more mass desposit then instead recurring to the high-tech and carryalls I will just simple build more refineries instead and I wouldn't need to expand my base.

Still, I wonder if one Mass Deposit with two pads would be better than two Mass Deposits near each-other. I expect it would solve some of the Harvesters pushing each-other around and slowing down the Harvesting to have just two pads beside each-other. Then the player could capture another or two over the course of the map and max production, but until then he'd need to consider his purchases more carefully.

Side note, screw the original Quads. Yeah they can shoot over walls, but they deal like no damage! That makes me a sad Fey.

3 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Plus, in a side note, this it's a tech 5 of map; if this map would be a tech 2, those 2 mass deposit would be enough (maybe not for non-stop building or 3 barrac 3 light factory); but that souldn't be required anyway; and with a tech of 3-4 a third mass deposit/ref would be enough.

It's just that tech of 5, to buy plenty of stuff you require a good amount of money, but that also makes the player to not build stuff for the sake of wasting money.So, in short; You don't need to increase the mass deposits at all; just because my money went low doesn't mean that it's not enough, but I should build the stuff I need not just filling every queue possible.

Right, that makes sense. So, for a Light II map. a couple of Mass Deposits in the main would be fine for the whole map even with the player getting only 490 credits per back. For Advanced... maybe three in close proximity would be a safe bet. Before I released the map, the AI was optimized and overtuned for testing purposes, and they had WAY too many tanks. With one Refinery and three Harvesters, strangely enough.

3 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

By the way ; I saw Harkonnen Harvs going into the Ordos area; I don't mean that central part, but the Ordos side. (at the bottom).

Yep! That was the side 3 Harvester. They start with one at the central MD, and once that one's blown up, they get a new one that'll fly to one of the Ordos MDs. It's to give a sense that the player has made progress as no more enemy Harvesters will fly to the central MD after you destroy the three that initially go there. Loading up the map in the editor, you'll see that side 3 has a bunch of Deviators at its Refinery, and once side 7 captures their starting Harvester, they leave the game. This leaves them only with the one they start with at the central MD. :)

3 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Didn't you made already some maps with starports placed on sand-unbuildable area that explode early or need to protect? or maybe was another guy.

Either way, if you place a building on the sand and explode I think those tiles just get the "you can build here" and the crates are formed.

The infantry-only looks fine;

Definitely not me! I only place buildings on the rocks for just that reason.

That's good. And speaking of looks, here's the new Base Platform style fitted for the grassy tileset:
https://prnt.sc/m1pcj2

As you can see, it now can extend over beaches and water. Rather than draw pointed lights on the water tiles, I tried putting some more sparkly water tiles next to the edges with bulbs. Much like the dark blue platform in the Heighliner tileset, the water in the Caladan tileset looks nice in contrast with the Base Platform... but, that's not to say the Base Platform won't possibly look out of place over water. I mean, drilling platforms over water are a thing, so maybe this is a similar concept. Base Platform contains resources so that ConYards work. Resources can be found in the soil of Caladan or seeded purposefully in specific locations on a Heighliner, in theory. Then, Base Platform simplifies the process of extracting said resources and just happens to have that orange coloration.

Here are the accessible tiles:
https://prnt.sc/m1oj8n
https://prnt.sc/m1ojik

Vehicles are slowed on the beach and around the edges of Base Platform. Maybe it'd be best for the Base Platform in the second screenshot to extend a liiiittle bit further, just so it looks right as units pass either way, but, again, it's still an idea in the works. And I hope this idea creates significant new aesthetical possibilities! So, how does it look in general?

Oh, yeah, and I suspect the Spice / sand tiles could be repurposed in the Heighliner tileset... but, thin Spice would never work properly in that case. I was thinking of painting some kind of really bright platform similar in color to sand, then drawing some crates on that. Harvesters could go grab those crates, they would be like the "thin Spice" tiles, but I'm not sure that'd look right just driving over the boxes. If the tiles are painted on from the tileset rather than added as thin Spice, they should in theory have the behaviors assigned to them in the tile attributes data.

If you want to see what I mean by that, try opening the tileset and placing a thick Spice tile rather than painting sand and drawing thick Spice over that. The tile will have the appearance of having Spice, but it'll only be an image.

Edited by Fey

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Fey said:

Or, heck, even 4 units? How would that be? Like this:
B  B  B
D     D
D B  D

So the pipes can remain where they are, but the other stuff around the structure's sides can be relocated a bit. I could do five, I guess, I'm just thinking what'd look best.

That would be enough, I think. 

16 hours ago, Fey said:

Yeah, that makes sense. I also used the greater-distance Carryall numbers in this map. Did you use any Carryalls, and if so did that work out? Harvesters would drive a longer distance before requesting a Carryall and any units attempting to repair would also go a significantly higher distance before calling for pickup. Might as well kill two birds with one stone, right? Gotta test how that increased distance feels.

Yes, Mostly for reaching the middle area, if not between my units and stuff the harvs have too many problems by driving normally; and just like I said, harversters sometimes go when they shouldn't, like picking money on the deposit of the right but then trying to release it on the ref to the left so, the carryalls help with that.

16 hours ago, Fey said:

Still, I wonder if one Mass Deposit with two pads would be better than two Mass Deposits near each-other. I expect it would solve some of the Harvesters pushing each-other around and slowing down the Harvesting to have just two pads beside each-other. Then the player could capture another or two over the course of the map and max production, but until then he'd need to consider his purchases more carefully.

For a campaign perspective, the 2 "buildings" with 1 pad each one it's better, because when you play a campaign, the early maps usually give to the player one "get money from here" and, with the expensive units two are given as "expensive toys require double the production"; looking at 2 buildings looks more profitable than looking 1 building that have 1 with 2-3 pads.

But also depends on the map, here doesn't really matter that much, but If the area was slighly different I could place 1 refinerie near one of the mass deposit and another still near to the other, whoever with 2 pads together I only can place 1 near and a second ref "no so near".

But all this depens of the campaign, map and etc.

16 hours ago, Fey said:

That's good. And speaking of looks, here's the new Base Platform style fitted for the grassy tileset:
https://prnt.sc/m1pcj2

Now, after looking/playing with the "ship tileset" you done this one doesn't look that good xD.

16 hours ago, Fey said:

Vehicles are slowed on the beach and around the edges of Base Platform. Maybe it'd be best for the Base Platform in the second screenshot to extend a liiiittle bit further, just so it looks right as units pass either way, but, again, it's still an idea in the works. And I hope this idea creates significant new aesthetical possibilities! So, how does it look in general?

I don't know if you can make a platform that in the edge looks a bit more plain or something, I don't know how to say it.

Like this:
http://www.zetaestaticos.com/valladolid/img/noticias/0/109/109309_1.jpg
I don't saying the walls or something, just the slope itself.

The platform looking like looks right now but on the areas near the land or something, the "borders" (connecting on the land, beach, etc... transitable/crossable) showing this slope, even if it's just a very small, you know; this way would be easy to know from where I can cross (by choosing the correct file) but also won't look as if my units could fall down to the water (just the feeling that could happen). 

Maybe you can use the "ending" of the bridge.
bridge.png.44b165c804071ae06ca8ac5ab3aa3b65.png -Just the middle ending tile, at the top. Chaning the rock area and adding the green part of the tileset (or water) or something in between.

Edited by Cm_blast

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

That would be enough, I think.

Alright, I'll see what I can do with that.

3 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Yes, Mostly for reaching the middle area, if not between my units and stuff the harvs have too many problems by driving normally; and just like I said, harversters sometimes go when they shouldn't, like picking money on the deposit of the right but then trying to release it on the ref to the left so, the carryalls help with that.

Great.

3 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

For a campaign perspective, the 2 "buildings" with 1 pad each one it's better, because when you play a campaign, the early maps usually give to the player one "get money from here" and, with the expensive units two are given as "expensive toys require double the production"; looking at 2 buildings looks more profitable than looking 1 building that have 1 with 2-3 pads.

But also depends on the map, here doesn't really matter that much, but If the area was slighly different I could place 1 refinerie near one of the mass deposit and another still near to the other, whoever with 2 pads together I only can place 1 near and a second ref "no so near".

But all this depens of the campaign, map and etc.

I see what you mean. The MD placement in the enemy bases was similar with one MD on its own somewhere and two MDs close together in the main.

3 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Now, after looking/playing with the "ship tileset" you done this one doesn't look that good xD.

I don't know if you can make a platform that in the edge looks a bit more plain or something, I don't know how to say it.

Like this:
http://www.zetaestaticos.com/valladolid/img/noticias/0/109/109309_1.jpg
I don't saying the walls or something, just the slope itself.

The platform looking like looks right now but on the areas near the land or something, the "borders" (connecting on the land, beach, etc... transitable/crossable) showing this slope, even if it's just a very small, you know; this way would be easy to know from where I can cross (by choosing the correct file) but also won't look as if my units could fall down to the water (just the feeling that could happen). 

Maybe you can use the "ending" of the bridge.
bridge.png.44b165c804071ae06ca8ac5ab3aa3b65.png -Just the middle ending tile, at the top. Chaning the rock area and adding the green part of the tileset (or water) or something in between.

Maybe it'd look better connecting two beaches, not jutting out of just one. XD

You mean, like, end the border over the water? The problem is that having two sorts of terrain in the same tile kind of locks the tile into bordering those two types of terrain. That's why the first grassy tileset with BP edges being half grass, half BP couldn't extend over water, but the new BP tiles end abruptly at the very edge. So, they can extend over beaches and water and there won't be random grass beyond the ends, you know? And then there's only so much room for changes in tilesets, which it turns out is the case in the grassy one.

Btw, I hit up Shaokhan on YT and I'm wondering if it'd be possible to get infinite Spice maps working for multiplayer. You suppose the guys over on C&Cnet might be interested in a space platform kind of map? Shaokhan said they'd probably want the gameplay to be as similar to how it currently is as possible, so I've got some more incentive to look into the white platform, crates, "thin Spice" design, but I'd love to know if we could throw infinite Spice on top of that for a mixture of inexhaustible MDs and expendable crates. Here's the vid where I dropped my comment, Cm:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJEHs7Z9Hag&lc=z224wb5qhoyjt3bngacdp430ztwek21q0kpd1vhd5ylw03c010c.1546337550115273

Edited by Fey

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Posted (edited)
On 1/1/2019 at 3:17 PM, Fey said:

You mean, like, end the border over the water? The problem is that having two sorts of terrain in the same tile kind of locks the tile into bordering those two types of terrain. That's why the first grassy tileset with BP edges being half grass, half BP couldn't extend over water, but the new BP tiles end abruptly at the very edge. So, they can extend over beaches and water and there won't be random grass beyond the ends, you know? And then there's only so much room for changes in tilesets, which it turns out is the case in the grassy one.

Dunno; I fell that the base platform when on grass it's fine but in water looks like if a tank would fall down into the water if not too carefully, but if there was 4 new tiles, something like this:
https://prnt.sc/m20ncl

I mean, I did that in like 2 minutes, so don't take as "do this"; but this is what I mean.

Just something like that, a very small indication that "you can go trhough the platform from those parts, but not the others", just like saying that the platform it's some cm above the terrain, or simply the other parts are just a very small wall that vehicles cannot go over it, or something in between; Of course the design would change if you don't allow to walk using the section with the light on it, but overall this it's what I mean.

In that image I only changed a few "tiles" (it's just a copy-pasted photoshoped); but you can do that for all the tiles that are in the grass plus the ones on the beach; the others (all the ones near a water tile) are still walkable but at least will look that it's like a small wall (or whatever) that protect people to fall down into the water (and since there is water the player never will go trhough that piece of wall while changing from 1 tile to another.

Like this:
https://prnt.sc/m20uz7

All the transitable area "plain", while the tiles that led the units into "water" maintaining the "piece of wall", for example.

Or the opposite; you can add a new tile that have like a big border or something on the tiles that connect on the water.

On 1/1/2019 at 3:17 PM, Fey said:

Btw, I hit up Shaokhan on YT and I'm wondering if it'd be possible to get infinite Spice maps working for multiplayer. You suppose the guys over on C&Cnet might be interested in a space platform kind of map? Shaokhan said they'd probably want the gameplay to be as similar to how it currently is as possible, so I've got some more incentive to look into the white platform, crates, "thin Spice" design, but I'd love to know if we could throw infinite Spice on top of that for a mixture of inexhaustible MDs and expendable crates. Here's the vid where I dropped my comment, Cm:

If I am not mistaken, there are a few maps over there (RA based) where the .ini files or those maps already changed, so I guess that, at least at some point, people don't always play the most basic rules.

But I guess that's something you need to ask for people who usually play on skirmish me, I have nothing to said here because I only played a couple of games to check if this AI was improved. It was indeed, but mostly because now he plays on easy (and I had disabled the eengineer that time I played in coop with a friend, I got destroyed by the AI).

Buy overall I am not interested on multiplayer-online so I don't really care about AI's improvement for that; I won't mind having some kind of pre-set Ai's that I could use for a campaign using a skirmish AI's, but I like more making the player to run out of money from time to time so I can pay a bit more attention at the enemy attack that just rushing building and units non-stop meanwhile I only press the "G" command and let my units defend by themselves.

But if you can create an AI that really improve the current one they may accept it, but be carefull, if you set an AI on easy it start with 3000 credits I think, change the order to rush the barracks first and you have that AI doomed; plus some people are average at the game; you don't want a too hard AI that never have the chance to win.

By the way; you were wondering if the current online AI was good or not; This it's the one used there; you can check it.
Online Cncnet AI.misai

I didn't look too much in deep, I got it just for recopilate more stuff; but from what I saw the AI have a 3 harv per ref and 2 carryall per ref, a 30/70 on infantry/troopers, trikes/quads and something similar to reduce siege tanks while bumbing the other two tanks.

And about the .bin stuff; something like I said, you can offerd "modified files that will mod the game and balacing it; you can use to play online with these" and whatever want to play usen to play them will do.

There is somebody that still use the queue path created eones ago. So yeah; you probably will find people that will like to play using your modified quads and etc.

Edited by Cm_blast

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On 1/1/2019 at 8:50 PM, Cm_blast said:

Dunno; I fell that the base platform when on grass it's fine but in water looks like if a tank would fall down into the water if not too carefully, but if there was 4 new tiles, something like this:
https://prnt.sc/m20ncl

I mean, I did that in like 2 minutes, so don't take as "do this"; but this is what I mean.

Just something like that, a very small indication that "you can go trhough the platform from those parts, but not the others", just like saying that the platform it's some cm above the terrain, or simply the other parts are just a very small wall that vehicles cannot go over it, or something in between; Of course the design would change if you don't allow to walk using the section with the light on it, but overall this it's what I mean.

In that image I only changed a few "tiles" (it's just a copy-pasted photoshoped); but you can do that for all the tiles that are in the grass plus the ones on the beach; the others (all the ones near a water tile) are still walkable but at least will look that it's like a small wall (or whatever) that protect people to fall down into the water (and since there is water the player never will go trhough that piece of wall while changing from 1 tile to another.

Like this:
https://prnt.sc/m20uz7

All the transitable area "plain", while the tiles that led the units into "water" maintaining the "piece of wall", for example.

Ohh, I see! Alright, that makes sense. Yeah, I like how that looks in the first screenshot.

I'm gonna work up a limited resources system first. We're gonna have some gold platform for the sand craters, crates to harvest, and the edges of the harvestable crate tiles will be lined with a black and yellow 'warning! hard hat area!' thing. Here are some WIP images:
Gold platform: https://prnt.sc/m2hgb1
(and a little bit darker): https://prnt.sc/m2hik5
Imported crate sprites: https://prnt.sc/m2hgo1
Completed borders: https://prnt.sc/m2hh0s

So, the platform is gonna go under the borders, and then crates on top of both... uhh... here, something like this:
https://prnt.sc/m2hssy

I deleted the shadows on the crates, so it looks a little crappier than it should, but you get the idea. Harvesters can drive over these tiles and it'll be like harvesting Spice, I can recolor the crates some, maybe flatten them a little bit so vehicles driving over them look a little better...

How's that idea? It'd definitely look better in the Heighliner tileset, but maybe it'd be possible to work up some bright terrain with, like, bright blue minerals or something to harvest for the grassy tileset. Then if I could just redo the cliffs, water, grass, etc, I'll have made it my own. :P I'm not too interested in making it my own, it'd be nice but I just want it to be functional.

On 1/1/2019 at 8:50 PM, Cm_blast said:

If I am not mistaken, there are a few maps over there (RA based) where the .ini files or those maps already changed, so I guess that, at least at some point, people don't always play the most basic rules.

But I guess that's something you need to ask for people who usually play on skirmish me, I have nothing to said here because I only played a couple of games to check if this AI was improved. It was indeed, but mostly because now he plays on easy (and I had disabled the eengineer that time I played in coop with a friend, I got destroyed by the AI).

Buy overall I am not interested on multiplayer-online so I don't really care about AI's improvement for that; I won't mind having some kind of pre-set Ai's that I could use for a campaign using a skirmish AI's, but I like more making the player to run out of money from time to time so I can pay a bit more attention at the enemy attack that just rushing building and units non-stop meanwhile I only press the "G" command and let my units defend by themselves.

But if you can create an AI that really improve the current one they may accept it, but be carefull, if you set an AI on easy it start with 3000 credits I think, change the order to rush the barracks first and you have that AI doomed; plus some people are average at the game; you don't want a too hard AI that never have the chance to win.

By the way; you were wondering if the current online AI was good or not; This it's the one used there; you can check it.
Online Cncnet AI.misai

I didn't look too much in deep, I got it just for recopilate more stuff; but from what I saw the AI have a 3 harv per ref and 2 carryall per ref, a 30/70 on infantry/troopers, trikes/quads and something similar to reduce siege tanks while bumbing the other two tanks.

And about the .bin stuff; something like I said, you can offerd "modified files that will mod the game and balacing it; you can use to play online with these" and whatever want to play usen to play them will do.

There is somebody that still use the queue path created eones ago. So yeah; you probably will find people that will like to play using your modified quads and etc.

Yeah, Shaokhan said that custom .ini rules can apply, which is good. I'm not too interested in MP for this game, myself, as much as I like to watch! I'm more just making sure it's possible for future mappers to have maximum flexibility with the tileset.

Is there an area of the forums where those MP folks frequent, or do they stay in another circle?

Apparently it's also possible to change the AIs' starting credits. Although it would doom an AI in emergency mode, it'd work with cash thresholds, and then they could start training some infantry right away! I dunno, I'd have to experiment and see what I could do. I'd like to give the AIs varying behavior; that might be a good change for practice mode.

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3 hours ago, Fey said:

So, the platform is gonna go under the borders, and then crates on top of both... uhh... here, something like this:
https://prnt.sc/m2hssy

I deleted the shadows on the crates, so it looks a little crappier than it should, but you get the idea. Harvesters can drive over these tiles and it'll be like harvesting Spice, I can recolor the crates some, maybe flatten them a little bit so vehicles driving over them look a little better...

That reminds me the C&C Generals game, same concept; would be interesting to see in game.

3 hours ago, Fey said:

Yeah, Shaokhan said that custom .ini rules can apply, which is good. I'm not too interested in MP for this game, myself, as much as I like to watch! I'm more just making sure it's possible for future mappers to have maximum flexibility with the tileset.

There are some rules that can be write on the ini like the initial money, the tech, starting with a MCV (or not) and a few things more. I still would want to know a way to disable eengineers and turrets for campaign maps the same way they can be removed on skirmish one.

3 hours ago, Fey said:

Is there an area of the forums where those MP folks frequent, or do they stay in another circle?

Dunno.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Cm_blast said:

That reminds me the C&C Generals game, same concept; would be interesting to see in game.

Yeah, exactly! But, uhh, does everything look alright so far? The gold platform ain't perfect for the craters, and brightening it doesn't seem to look good. I need to do a little more work on the borders to make it look at least a little more 3D,... and the crates should be flatter just because Harvesters will be driving over it. Anything else?

Here, I flattened the crates a little and did the shadows. Hopefully these still look like crates, only... flatter:
https://prnt.sc/m2lq45

1 hour ago, Cm_blast said:

There are some rules that can be write on the ini like the initial money, the tech, starting with a MCV (or not) and a few things more. I still would want to know a way to disable eengineers and turrets for campaign maps the same way they can be removed on skirmish one.

Being able to affect the tech level on a map by map basis would be really useful. MP maps are loaded with special rules though, right? Would it be possible to configure the Mission Launcher to launch maps in this way instead? If so, what consequences would that have, would that screw anything else up? I guess we'll need to hit up the guy behind the Mission Launcher to at least see if that can be done.

Edited by Fey

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3 hours ago, Fey said:

Yeah, exactly! But, uhh, does everything look alright so far? The gold platform ain't perfect for the craters, and brightening it doesn't seem to look good. I need to do a little more work on the borders to make it look at least a little more 3D,... and the crates should be flatter just because Harvesters will be driving over it. Anything else?

Here, I flattened the crates a little and did the shadows. Hopefully these still look like crates, only... flatter:
https://prnt.sc/m2lq45

Crates looks fine, you even can create groupe crates for thic spice and less crates for thin spice, for example.

But dunno, like the other tileset, until I cannot see how it looks with the rest of the tiles or ingame it's hard to tell.

3 hours ago, Fey said:

Being able to affect the tech level on a map by map basis would be really useful. MP maps are loaded with special rules though, right?

Yes, tech level it's defined on the ini. Doesn't matter that you choose "7" on the menu; the maps called "tank master" it's a 1 vs 1 (or several vs several) with a tech of 3; only windtraps and 3 heavy factories, so nobody can use sieges, for example.

also the initial units to make them appear yes or not and stuff like that; but those are into a "skirmish" section or something called like that.

I don't know about the rest of the stuff.

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1 hour ago, Cm_blast said:

Crates looks fine, you even can create groupe crates for thic spice and less crates for thin spice, for example.

But dunno, like the other tileset, until I cannot see how it looks with the rest of the tiles or ingame it's hard to tell.

Right. Guess I'll work up a prototype.

1 hour ago, Cm_blast said:

Yes, tech level it's defined on the ini. Doesn't matter that you choose "7" on the menu; the maps called "tank master" it's a 1 vs 1 (or several vs several) with a tech of 3; only windtraps and 3 heavy factories, so nobody can use sieges, for example.

also the initial units to make them appear yes or not and stuff like that; but those are into a "skirmish" section or something called like that.

I don't know about the rest of the stuff.

Maybe we could experiment with adding such a section to a campaign map's .ini and seeing what happens if it's loaded up in the Mission Launcher. :P

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1 hour ago, Fey said:

Maybe we could experiment with adding such a section to a campaign map's .ini and seeing what happens if it's loaded up in the Mission Launcher. :P

I already tried in the past, but feel free to do it yourself, maybe I did something wrong.

But overall those are loaded from a skirmis variable or something like that; too lazy to check no. At least I remember the sideiconbar (or something like that) when you can force everyone to use the 4 unit-in-screen, you know, you cannot produce a trooper and a tank at the same time withouth scrolling the icons on the tab.

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