Experience and Ranking in RTS, your thoughts?

[X3M]

I was just wondering,

 

What do you think about games where each unit can gain experience and a rank?

Does it give more fun then normal RTS games?

What is your favourite example where units gain experience?

 

Do you like the ranking to be linear, cumulative or exponential?

Should there be a maximum?

Or could units become gods of war since there is no limit?

And what kind of bonuses do players like to gain?

 

---

 

I played several games where ranking for units is an option. But not all games really give a bonus to that unit until they reach the last level. And the experience itself isn't really fair as well. Here 3 examples.

 

An example is C&C3, where

level 1 gives 110% damage and 110% health

level 2 gives 120% damage and 120% health

level 3 gives 120% damage and 150% health with twice the fire rate (damage 240%) and health regeneration

So, 110%, 120% and then 195% on average. That makes no logic in the third step for me.

However, this state can be reached with only 3/6/9 times killing its own worth. A linear increase in ranking. With a max of 3.

 

EBFD has even different bonuses on each unit. But gaining experience for them takes ages. The only units that I purposely trained where the snipers and kindjal infantry. And perhaps some Minotaurus, Sonic Tanks or Ordos APC, since they live long enough and are defenders in my eye's. All other units are kinda doomed after a while.

 

Warzone2100 allows units to gain 10% health and 10% damage on top with each level. But a amount of kills is needed. So dealing with weak units is a must. The kills needed are 4/8/16/32/64/128/256/512. This is exponential and has a max of 8. Which leads to 180%. Trying to reach the last level takes ages however, and isn't really worthwhile. A good thing about warzone2100 is that you can recycle units, and the new build units have the same experience.

 

 

[THE AQIB]

well red alert 3 used the same and I quite liked it....

[criver]

For me it's more fun to have a unit that can "update" its stats. A really good example is Jurassic War (I know the game is old - but I still really like it). 

In JWAR u got a collection of different attributes for each unit - like HP,DP,AP,SP,MP etc.

The great thing is that after a battle your unit gains experience which is then distributed between these different attributes (you can choose which attr to upgrade - you can upgrade all or some of them).

Also on mages classes u could get different spells/abilities when gaining enough experience.

The great thing about this type of game is that all of your units got this "hero" feel - I mean each of them can be a RPG main character. You can actually "build" something while playing (like minecraft xD) - you don't just stack armies in terms of numbers. Here's an example:

Usually the AI trains a lot of units equally (they train either by fighting opposing tribes or wild animals ) - I know the AI is not the best but whatever.

And this particular game I trained one unit till it reached godlike level - I was assassinating the units of the tribe next to me with it( I mean I ninjaed them while they were hunting).

Finally most of the units of that tribe started chasing my godlike unit (it could probably win 1v5 but not 1v30) - they passed through my "army" and destroyed it beautifully.

But I could lead that unit without dying to other tribes and created skirmishes with other tribes (obviously my unit was pretty much unscathed but the units of the tribe following my unit got in large scale fights with the other tribes) - with this I destroyed the main forces of most of the tribes - and it was possible only because of the fact that I had this unit updated to this lvl - and not 100 units with average stats.

 

Well whatever I mean I got a lot of fun out of this game especially because I could update my units (you could update an infantry so much that it could beat a tyrannosaurus bare-handed - of course u had to give that unit most of the hunting grounds so u couldn't have a lot of units like it unless u played for a long time). There were even legendary artifacts in the game.

 

Another game I should mention is  Magic & Mayhem (it's not really a typical RTS) - the interesting thing there was that if u level up your unit to the max - it could convert other units of the same type to your own.

 

As for emperor it had a really nice "units leveling" system - u got good things when ur units leveled up - like stealth for sniper and regen for kinjal.

 

I'd guess that the leveling system depends on the speed of the game - by this I mean the actual speed of things - most games nowadays can be decided in the first 5 minutes of the game with rushes etc. A complex leveling system requires time for managing your units - if you need that time to build a big army and do a rush then it's useless having such a complex system.

[X3M]

An infinite levelling system sounds neat. And I didn't know there where actually RTS out there which have this. (Except for some custom made maps and my board game)

 

It's also true that games where it is decided within the first 5 minutes, have no need for hero's. Unless you need to deal with more then 1 player in a FFA. This is true for Warcraft3/Frozen Throne.

 

Giving the player a choice in what to increase, is a good thing if the game can take like ages. Then you can increase that 1 thing what is needed to defeat the enemy. Range > Defences, Speed > Resource Management, Health/Damage > Big Army

 

This actually convinced me to rethink my ranking system on my board where you only could increase Health and Damage. Using experience for buying something is a great idea, breaks open new strategies, breaks open new choices, and it simplifies the system.

[criver]

Well u didn't have really infinite leveling in JWAR but you could level your units quite a bit (though I think it would have been more fun with even more choices for leveling and longer leveling). There was also another problem - classes. You had a clear distinction between mage class and soldier - so you could have a soldier upgrade his MP but he could never get any spells - which is silly in my opinion. I mean it would be great if you had more freedom deciding what your units could do (your mages couldn't carry weapons and shields too, but they could have items) - it  could have been done so that you need a lot more MP for a soldier to learn spells but at least he should be able to learn some with the xp he uses on MP.

My point is that making your units unique can be great.

 

Here's Jurassic War if u want to try and check it (the AI is bad though xD): [link removed]

You can skip to almost the last level so u don't have to play the 1st ones - here are the cheats: http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/974914-jurassic-war/cheats

 

Still the main problem for an infinite leveling system will be the same as for most strategies - snowballing (the favorite thing for all LOL players). While snowballing may be fun, it can turn a match boring very quickly (you can basically know who will win the game after the first 5 minutes). I don't mean to say that snowballing is not fun in itself - but a game where you can turn the tables around even against an opponent that is "winning" is  more fun I think. For example: if you level a unit so much that nobody can beat it - the game can turn boring.

 

What I think makes a game fun is for the game to be challenging even later in game (I mean the game shouldn't turn boring by the 20th minute because u stacked to many armies). Most games nowadays are clones of Warcraft, Starcraft etc. I don't mean that all of them lack originality - but I think that RTS had more variety in the previous century. If the game can keep you on edge during the whole match I think that's a good game (but that's IMHO ).

 

I kinda digressed here from the main topic - but I think that this problem is one of the main problems in RTS - so no matter if u change the leveling system it can still be a change for the bad if this major problem is not "fixed". Various mechanisms could be put into use to avoid this issue - a developer should try to increase the "skill" and "strategic thinking" required from the game. What  see nowadays in games is: You have better knowledge of the game = you win. I don't think that the "knowledge of the game" should be the only and most decisive factor in winning. I don't mean that you shouldn't know your units strength and weaknesses at all - but fights should be decided more on strategy rather than number and quality of units.

 

So back to topic - I think that an "infinite" leveling system is great if it can be devised well (cause it can cause a big problem if it is not thought out better - it can easily turn your units OP or UP if it is not devised well). A great idea would be for this system - rather than making your units only strong - to give them some abilities too - which abilities could provide more options for variations in the strategy used.

My point is to emphasize skill and creative thinking rather than game knowledge.

 

I don't really know about this being implemented in a board game - cause it can become quite tedious with all these calculations and stats - which are usually handled behind the scenes when it comes down to a PC game.

 

I realize I kinda digressed a lot with this answer but I wanted to make it clear that such a leveling system is relative - it can make a game beyond horrid but it can turn a game into a masterpiece too.

[X3M]

Good well thought answer. For infinite levelling, you need ways to overcome this.

 

There are still many weak points that an unit should have. Of course they become less and less once they level up.

But some weapons are "infinite" so to speak. With a board game, you still can have some sort of event cards that stops units from firing, instantly kills it, or even take it over to your side.

But that's handy for a board game only.

 

For a normal RTS, there are several options:

- 1 way is a ground unit that shoots ground units, but then gets ambushed by air units. And it can't really run from them if they are faster.

Further more, if the units are able to focus fire on this unit only, it will take so much damage, that it will die or has to retreat.

- Another way, Sand-worm!

- Invisible opponents, until you spot them, but you can take out the spotter as well.

- In some games, healing units with a lot of health, takes a lot of time. So even though it is not logic, an unit that is OP needs a lot of time to heal too. Increased health is a way for programmers to fake skill on an unit. Lethal Warzone has this set back on units. But in return, healers can be trained just as much :). Which is nice.

- What if only a part is trained, the anti damage against 1 type of unit. While another unit type is still deadly for your "hero".

- If it comes to a combination of health and armour on units. Then increased armour will reduce damage. But there can be piercing damage that always will hit the target. With sufficient piercing damaging units your "hero" is doomed.

- EMP, Poison, Mind Control.

- Enemy AI needs to recognise these highly trained units and try to avoid them or only target them if they know they can kill it if a player doesn't respond.

[MrFlibble]

Here's Jurassic War if u want to try and check it (the AI is bad though xD): [link removed]

I'm sorry but I have to remove the link. It is clearly stated in the forum rules that

• Discussion of obtaining pirated software is not allowed.

[criver]

I'm sorry if I broke any rule - but to my knowledge this is abandonware and not pirated software.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandonwarehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandonware

However I do realize that abandonware is regarded differently in different countries (you can check Russia) - so I'm really sorry - my bad.

[X3M]

Just saying it's abandon ware, and naming the game is sufficient for someone from the Netherlands.

Interesting game, no doubt about it. But boring pretty quickly too. This is AI to blame.

 

I reviewed Red Alert 2, for the ranking system, because I knew they rank up fast and have tremendous power ups. The units become practically imbalanced war god machines once level 3 is reached. Especially the Prism Tanks and the GI in the IFV. It is fun for 1 time. But not fun all the time. I also noticed that the score goes to the killer, and all other units don't get any experience.

 

Are  there games out there where experience is shared?

[MrFlibble]

I'm sorry if I broke any rule - but to my knowledge this is abandonware and not pirated software.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandonware

However I do realize that abandonware is regarded differently in different countries (you can check Russia) - so I'm really sorry - my bad.

Here are some very informative posts that explain the concept of abandonware:

A Guide To Abandonware

What Is Abandonware

Particularly this:

2. Is Abandonware Legal?

Abandonware, is in fact, not legal. We define it as “illegal” but the reality floats somewhere in-between.

The same is actually stated in the Wikipedia article you linked to:

Proponents of abandonware preservation argue that it is more ethical to make copies of such software than new software that still sells. Those ignorant of copyright law have incorrectly taken this to mean that abandonware is legal to distribute, although no software written since 1964 is old enough for copyright to have expired in the US.[18] Even in cases where the original company no longer exists, the rights usually belong to someone else, though no one may be able to trace actual ownership, including the owners themselves.

(emphasis added)

[criver]

I got the point - hence my previous reply. Still it was not pirated software - hence why I didn't realize I broke the rule when I was writing my post. Thanks for the articles - I know what abandonware is, it was my bad - I didn't think much into it before posting (I mean things aren't really clear concerning abandonware - I'm sure I read somewhere abandonware is "legal" in Russia - not sure if it's true though).

Though I realize I shouldn't have posted this link - so I'll refrain from doing so in the future.

 

P.S. A good idea would be to add this explicitly in the rules cause I think abandoware differs from pirated software - but it could be just me - so never mind if it is like that.

[MrFlibble]

I mean things aren't really clear concerning abandonware - I'm sure I read somewhere abandonware is "legal" in Russia - not sure if it's true though

Russia has a long history of software piracy, and if you're interested there's actually no equivalent to the term "abandonware" in Russian. Abandonware is not, and can't, be legal in any country, it's just the question of whether unlicensed distribution of software is persecuted or not. Post-Soviet Russian legislation does handle the issues of software copyright and violations thereof, and these laws are quite compliant with international copyright standards.

None of this, however, has absolutely anything to do with FED2k forum rules at all.

P.S. A good idea would be to add this explicitly in the rules cause I think abandoware differs from pirated software - but it could be just me - so never mind if it is like that.

I don't remember if the old forums rules used the term "abandonware" but I'm sure someone of the senior administrators will come along and add it to the "no discussion of warez" clause in the current rules.

I hope this resolves the situation at hand, and no further confusion will arise.

[X3M]

So you are saying you rather see, for example, all predator tanks upgraded at the same time, then them ranking individually?

If you have a lot of 1 type, then the upgrade itself is cheap. It also makes other units obsolete.

 

Or are you suggesting a ranking system for the player self? Just like in Generals/Zero Hour? Where players can choose for an upgrade for the units?

There is still a chance that other units become obsolete.

 

What if units can be upgraded individually just like the Avatar?

Then you have a lot of predator tanks, but only a few are upgraded with missiles/lasers/infantry.

Kinda like the Overlord Tank, but then for all units.

[X3M]

Yeah, me too.

 

But if every unit can have several weapons and limitless choices, wouldn't that mean that every unit will become the same?

Tank with rifle gets upgraded with cannon and rocket

Tank with cannon gets upgraded with rifle and rocket

Tank with rocket gets upgraded with rifle and cannon

You now have 3 tanks with each the same weapons

 

The path of starting costs, and needed experience can be different. But most likely, players will choose 1 of these 3 that is the easiest to do. And the other 2 are discarded.

 

Or, each tank has limits on upgrades. The tank with rifle could only get one of the 2 other weapons, and extra upgrades for it's main weapon. That way, you keep differences.

 

What would you suggest?

[X3M]

Ok.

 

What if units can be upgraded on their statistics instead of their weaponry? Of course the main and only weapon can be upgraded as well. But if an unit has several weapons, these could be upgraded separately. :)

 

You could select the experience you want on the unit with its own strategic advance:

Some examples: Armour, Health, Speed, Damage, Range, Rate of Fire

With Armour, you can fight longer against low damaging weapons and reduce effects on the higher damaging weapons as well.

With Health, you can fight longer

With Speed, you can outrun or catch other units which is good for guerilla fighting

and each weapon:

With Damage, you can hurt higher armoured units but it's not necessary good against low armoured units

With Range, you can hurt units from further away unless there is a lot of vision block or a not reachable unit like air units

With Rate of Fire, you can kill faster if you have sufficient or overkill damage

 

Of course it depends on the game design which statistics get upgraded most.

Some players would train with a goal, but most mix it up, or keep it simple by upgrading 1 type on all.

But if you think about it, you would be training the unit on a weak point, if this training is cheap. Just to get it more suitable for other situations. Just like how a slow tank which is good in all other things, would be getting the same speed as an unit that it wants to catch.

 

Do you think a system like this would work?

Or would players hate it?

[X3M]

Summary:
Well, it depends on the game too.
If each unit has 6 weak points and 6 strong points (score 1). Then by selecting the right statistics, these will decrease/increase. By removing 3 weak points and have added 3 strong points, this unit might become 3 times more useful. But this is on a normal balanced game. Other games might not have real weak and strong points.
Conclusion question:
Would it be safe to say that there should be different XP points for the different statistics? Depending on the units and game?

 

The tldr stuff :D:

Now some statistics are strong in certain games:
SC2 has relatively fast units, with some being very exceptional for micro purposes. Most have the same range unless it serves a purpose, there is a distinct difference in meat, normal and support. But health times numbers is almost the same for any unit, there isn't really a support class that needs protection during combat. However, only health observed, there are big differences. And if there is a lot of damage, try dividing them all by the rate of fire. The only purpose high damage has is having a bit more kills after the first shot. Which is low in this game. The differences in weapon strength on targets is at highest 41% linear or a factor 2,375 (Helion). With the exception of the Immortal. And of course the ability to reach another dimension: air.

In C&C3 however, the overall speed is slow. the range is about the same like in SC2. Again with some exception purposes. However, the melee units are flamethrowers. And they don't seem to be meat units this time, they can't really block. Every unit can be targeted a bit more with ease. Whereas in SC2, certain units are well protected for a longer period of time. When observing the damages it is obvious clear that some units really are support units by sniping out enemies from great distances and a low rate of fire. If it comes to health, they are truly a support class that is vulnerable but needed. The differences in weapon strength on targets is at highest 60% linear or a factor 4. Support units like the sniper are not taken into account. Actually, almost every weapon has this difference in weapon strength, while in SC2 some units have almost no to none difference.

It is obvious clear that statistics are different balanced in the different games. Thus increasing statistics will be having different effects as well.

The Siege Tank in mobile mode.
It weak or strong points are:
Armour, if targeted by anti armour. But there isn't much of this. Let alone the armour is useful when targeting something that's bad against the tank.
Health, if it has to deal with it's anti. But there isn't much of this. Well air seems to be it. But that can't be a point.
Speed, average speed. Can't catch faster units. But once targeted. Those units are dead anyway. Faster units have lower health.
Damage, does not work on low armour classes? Actually, it does.
Range, is medium, so support units will make short work of it if there where support units. Only siege mode would really work. But that's it.
Rate of Fire, rather slow because the cannon is a big weapon. But that's still fast.

There isn't really difference in weak and strong points. It depends on the numbers of units. Only amass you can spot the differences for real. But this is due to the sum effect during the death of 2 fighting sides.

Anyway, if you want to increase statistics by experience. Everything goes. While speed isn't necessary at first. Health and Rate of Fire would be the main choices. After this, some damage for supporting the Rate of Fire power up. It seems that range would be something useful since most units lack the difference. And with range this "hero" unit will be better protected. If a player wants to kill it, the player needs a lot of work. The "hero" can stay and fight. Only cloaked units might have a chance. Increasing statistics does not increase fun for this game, except temporary the hero player.

Back to the Predator tank from C&C3, the one with only a cannon.
It weak points are:
Armour, if targeted by anti armour.
Health, if it has to deal with it's anti.
Speed, it's slow compared to what it wants to target and slow if it wants to outrun or crush certain units.
Damage, does not work on low armour classes.
Range, is medium, so support units will make short work of it.
Rate of Fire, rather slow because the cannon is a big weapon.

The strong points:
Armour, bullets wont work.
Health, it takes very long to kill it, even though this is a medium classed tank in GDI.
Speed, it can outrun the Mammoth, but that is about it.
Damage, all high armour classes take plenty of damage.
Range, is medium, so some targets have not chance.
Rate of Fire, is not a strong point at all!

So "7" weak points on statistics and "5" strong points on statistics.

It is obvious that you want to increase speed now. Since it will tackle lots of weak points. The strong side of it's speed was a weak one, so this one will increase fast when more and more other tanks are added to be outclassed by speed. You simply can do things faster that are good. And your micro potential increases on this unit.
The very next to increase is Rate of Fire. Not only will other targets die faster, but yeah, in this case it's good to increase since it starts so low.
And even though range is medium classed. Having more, means having more fun. Range is also a good combination with speed.

So this relatively high in strength unit gets speed and range. While the weak points still exist a player can catch it by surprise. The "hero" needs to run but can be trapped. So if a player wants to kill it, the player can do so. Increasing statistics in this game is fun, for both players.