Dune2000, underestimated in quality?

[THE AQIB]

Any idea how they did it. Cause i want to do a few modifications to it myself.

[Feda]

Heared about changing a condition, not sure if it was this:

if house > 3 //something related to the house index, but idk if it was like this

if that is true it changes index to an existing and configured house, in this case, ordos (which is 2).

Maybe I'm wrong a bit, but this is the way they did it, by making the .dat file to default the index to ordos if the index was greater than a specific number which I remember was 3.

[THE AQIB]

Hm i didn't understand completely what that means but i will give reverse engineering a try by mvi's method. If it's too much (for me) i might stop. But i'll give it a try.

[Nyerguds]

TibEd is using .bin files, AI is having dune2000.dat.

Not entirely correct. TibEd normally uses ini files (rules.ini etc), and the core editor itself really only supports ini files.

For C&C95 and Dune 2000, it has a special system that actually converts the internal data from the game's binary files to ini format so the editor can edit it, and then writes it back into the binary files when saving. I've talked about this process with Koen Van de Sande when he implemented my C&C95 information into TibEd 1.

Regarding the C&C dawn flame tank.

The 2 range is due to splash damage. When you target an enemy, the flame tank will move up close to just 1 range since it thinks it has only 1 range.

Uhh... no. 2 range means 2 cells from the center of the flame tank to the center of its target... meaning, it leaves maximum 1 cell in between itself and its target (and only in a straight line). That's exactly how it acts ingame too.

Do note C&C has a special logic for compensating for building size, that makes it do the range calculation on the nearest edge cell of the building, but allows the actual weapon to be fired at the center of the building. Not sure if this rule applies in the same way to ballistic weapons, mind you.

[X3M]

Seems you are right regarding the flame tank. Sometimes it stops at range 1. But most at times at range 2. It depends on the angle, how the flame tank approaches the enemy.

It's obvious in this little link.

However, sometimes it even fires at range "3", the range is that of a horse jump. So it's square root 5.

I always moved up close for attacking structures. So how is the damage at different ranges?

You got all the statistics on the C&C units? Can I have a look?

[Feda]

Nyer is a boss when it comes to C&C modding :D

[Nyerguds]

However, sometimes it even fires at range "3", the range is that of a horse jump. So it's square root 5.

It's possible this is related to the origin point of the weapon not being the center of the unit, but the front of it. I haven't found these firing offsets yet, and it's one of the last problems currently still preventing me from adding fully functional new units to the game. It affects where the muzzle flash is drawn, so where the end of the unit's 'barrel' is, so it may affect actual range calculations too.

I always moved up close for attacking structures. So how is the damage at different ranges?

I'm not sure, really. I've always done that too, but as far as I know, damage should only be only related to the targeted position, since fire is an invisible projectile that travels to that target's center and then "explodes" in fire there. So technically it shouldn't matter if you're away from it or right next to it.

If you target a group of infantry, though, it's obviously more efficient to attack those in the middle from further away since the spread will also take out those between the flame tank and the targeted unit.

You got all the statistics on the C&C units? Can I have a look?

Well, practically all of them. Everything I found so far. Has a fair bit of interesting stuff though, since it contains things like building foundations, terrain tiles, infantry animations, all weapon info, and even structure animations.

http://nyerguds.arsaneus-design.com/cnc95upd/inirules/

The themes.ini is the only one the game already reads, though.

Note that the color schemes are stuff I added in v1.06. It's basically an expansion of Nod's dual colours system expanded to all houses. You can check the original houses info in the old/ folder. The palettes in colors.ini, up to NeutralPalette, are all original data though.

[X3M]

Ok, you see one of the flame tanks firing at the guard tower at 1:25 with the horsejump fire.

Thanks for the ini files. They look different then the ones I saw 10-15 years ago. Lost those files, it's now just a memory. Also, the parts of 256 for the damages is new. I had my looks on a % version. Also, the health are a bit different. But they come closer to what I calculated then what I had seen before. A lot of stuff I can't remember as well.

Which one is the LST? Only a cost of 300?

And the ROF, is it rounds per minute? It's a strange way to decide on the weapons speed. Most RTS games use the cool down format. Where a cool down of 1, means 1 second waiting. So then we would be speaking about a ROF=60?

MRLS costs 750? I thought it was 800?

Edit------------------------------------------------------

http://d2kplus.com/

I have been surfing through your site. Since you got good stuff. Then I got across this page.

http://d2kplus.com/images.php

And I have to say. These are the best pictures that I have seen until now. I am talking about these:

1 example:

The units pictures in game. But then high quality. Are really good to look at. It's almost as if someone was making these in some sort of 3D editor. Actually, this is more of a post in the other thread about the quality thing. (Whoop, it's here) But I was wondering...

Is there anyone out there that actually could make a really really realistic dessert with these driving around in it?

Completely 3D. And with a camera pan which would equal that of warzone2100. With 3D terrain and terrain effects on certain projectiles. For example: siege tanks that fire over mountaintops. Infantry that could hide in caves.

But another variation of quality would be:

Now, that would be really cool. I wonder if there are game creators out there that actually would just copy the style. Instead of thinking 1 of their own.

I guess, then there would be no question of the game's "quality". And if we are at it. Some balances can be made. Perhaps implementing some dune features. Or something like ammunition, so units have to do hit and run battles and such. Something really realistic. (I guess, I will keep dreaming)

[Feda]

Ok, you see one of the flame tanks firing at the guard tower at 1:25 with the horsejump fire.

Thanks for the ini files. They look different then the ones I saw 10-15 years ago. Lost those files, it's now just a memory. Also, the parts of 256 for the damages is new. I had my looks on a % version. Also, the health are a bit different. But they come closer to what I calculated then what I had seen before. A lot of stuff I can't remember as well.

Which one is the LST? Only a cost of 300?

And the ROF, is it rounds per minute? It's a strange way to decide on the weapons speed. Most RTS games use the cool down format. Where a cool down of 1, means 1 second waiting. So then we would be speaking about a ROF=60?

MRLS costs 750? I thought it was 800?

Edit------------------------------------------------------

I have been surfing through your site. Since you got good stuff. Then I got across this page.

http://d2kplus.com/images.php

And I have to say. These are the best pictures that I have seen until now. I am talking about these:

1 example:

The units pictures in game. But then high quality. Are really good to look at. It's almost as if someone was making these in some sort of 3D editor. Actually, this is more of a post in the other thread about the quality thing. (Whoop, it's here) But I was wondering...

Is there anyone out there that actually could make a really really realistic dessert with these driving around in it?

Completely 3D. And with a camera pan which would equal that of warzone2100. With 3D terrain and terrain effects on certain projectiles. For example: siege tanks that fire over mountaintops. Infantry that could hide in caves.

But another variation of quality would be:

Now, that would be really cool. I wonder if there are game creators out there that actually would just copy the style. Instead of thinking 1 of their own.

I guess, then there would be no question of the game's "quality". And if we are at it. Some balances can be made. Perhaps implementing some dune features. Or something like ammunition, so units have to do hit and run battles and such. Something really realistic. (I guess, I will keep dreaming)

Well not sure if you every heared or saw C&C Renegade: it can be modded to create a dune2000 on 3d engine, but its a RTS combined with FPS/TPS. Personally I like renegade a lot since it needs TEAMWORK (tons of) and strategy/tactics (again, there are many). Fans already made mods for Red Alert 1 (C&C A Path Beyond) , TS (C&C Reborn) etc. Why not Dune2k? :D If someone would be up for such a huge project ofc.

Indeed those images are awesome, idk where MVI found them. Dont remember to see such quality on google. They would be a very nice model to follow for the rene mod (to model the units in 3ds max/gmax/whatever). My reply isnt really about pure RTS , but it would be worth it to have that mod.

[THE AQIB]

Dune in 3d is what ebfd gave. I personally don't like it that much but it is a good game. How about modding RA3 that would be more interesting. But ofcourse more difficult. And i have seen those images and my eyes just popped out it's all from the sidebar but high res and more clear. Maybe i'll be using them in "DUNE 2K: THE ERA OF WAR". Well i don't like dune in 3d overall but 'll be fun to play.

[Feda]

I just hate RA3 and its engine.

[X3M]

I crave for awesome RTS in 3D environment. But it still has to remain RTS. So building a base and units, then fight each other.

Imagine playing an Unreal Tournament map. But instead of players killing each other. You have miniature buildings and tanks on that map. Some CTF maps would be very funny to play. On top of that. extreme hight would add some really funny situations to tactics.

Other humour, if the RTS is set in UT:

How about a tank elevator? Due to blasting, a tank ends up in lava or poison? A tank gets ordered to "jump" down, it receives fall damage :). Low gravity maps :D. A new type of units might get added; the jumpers. Warp holes.

Well, there are games out there that almost are RTS, and in a complete 3D environment. Yet as player, you are there as well. Or, you can't zoom in 100%. Warzone2100 gets the closest to such a RTS since you can zoom in and the environment has influence on the projectiles and vision. Yet, it's still watching from the top.

Another game where you can be shot dead (and it's over). Would be Battlezone (2)

This one was created before Renegade was created. However, you had to run the entire base, while in the field. Or in a tank.

If you decided to do real RTS on this game, you where standing vulnerable in the Comm Centre. But you could look at all angles by simply walking there. (Enemies shoot you though)

This mission: I think it's on the 10th planet (dark planet) dealing with some turrets. While your allies fight too. The orange tanks are comparable with combat tanks that hoover. There is also something that looks like a trike and a siege tank ^^. Trike is the lowest one and is a hoover, right above the "siege" tank from dune2. But that one is tracked and thus can't jump. That's right, the hoover units can jump :)

Anyway, your tanks can also dodge some incoming projectiles by moving sideways. For this, once again, you need to be a hoover. However, the tracked units have waaaaay more fire power and durability.

Hey, wait, there is a EBFD mod for Renegade. They are still working on it.

Lets see:

It's awesome.

[Nyerguds]

Thanks for the ini files. They look different then the ones I saw 10-15 years ago. Lost those files, it's now just a memory.

Umm, that must've been from RA anyway. C&C1 has no ini files; these inis are something I made from the data I found inside the exe file while hacking it.

Also, the parts of 256 for the damages is new. I had my looks on a % version.

The old/ folder has a version of the warheads file in which I converted the armour verses values to percentages, but /256 is simply more accurate since it's used that way internally.

Also, the health are a bit different. But they come closer to what I calculated then what I had seen before. A lot of stuff I can't remember as well.

Health of buildings is only 50% of the actual ingame values. I have no idea why this is, but the game doubles it at some point. I may change the inis to actually contain the real values, but this is how they're in the exe data.

Which one is the LST? Only a cost of 300?

Hovercraft. Which is quite unbuildable.

And the ROF, is it rounds per minute? It's a strange way to decide on the weapons speed. Most RTS games use the cool down format. Where a cool down of 1, means 1 second waiting. So then we would be speaking about a ROF=60?

ROF is Rate of Fire, and it's a delay between shots. As for how exactly it works, beats me, I just got the values from the exe. The RA and TS inis probably have more documentation on that.

btw, seconds are waaay too long as time units for this stuff.

MRLS costs 750? I thought it was 800?

MLRS is the SSM launcher. The Rocket Launcher is the MSAM, for "Mobile SAM site", because it can target air units :P

[THE AQIB]

There is an upcoming project but i don't see it's development now-a-days. Based on the unreal or cryengine. It's called dune was for spice. Looks promising. Ever heard of it? Os its makers the rockstorm games?

[Feda]

Yes i know, but the project hasn't been updated for some time.

[THE AQIB]

Well it's concept art blew me out. Well if it can really step up the game it'll be next on my play and mod list. But i can't also see them update it. They done a few harkonnen buildings and units and stopped. I guess either it stopped for a while or the work is going on.

[X3M]

Umm, that must've been from RA anyway. C&C1 has no ini files; these inis are something I made from the data I found inside the exe file while hacking it.

The old/ folder has a version of the warheads file in which I converted the armour verses values to percentages, but /256 is simply more accurate since it's used that way internally.

Health of buildings is only 50% of the actual ingame values. I have no idea why this is, but the game doubles it at some point. I may change the inis to actually contain the real values, but this is how they're in the exe data.

Hovercraft. Which is quite unbuildable.

ROF is Rate of Fire, and it's a delay between shots. As for how exactly it works, beats me, I just got the values from the exe. The RA and TS inis probably have more documentation on that.

btw, seconds are waaay too long as time units for this stuff.

MLRS is the SSM launcher. The Rocket Launcher is the MSAM, for "Mobile SAM site", because it can target air units :P/>

- Ok, it wasn't the RA ini file ;). It was a hacked dos version of the game, that's for sure. I live in the Netherlands. Back in those days, some games where actually different versions because they where released later in my country. And there where no updates with internet ^^. Perhaps the covert ops added ini files.

- Also, MRLS stands for Mobile Rocket Launch System. €750; stupid of me to forget that there was this SSM-Launcher. Yet I remember that one as SSML. Then again, the 3 tanks with cannons where LIGT, MEDT and MMTT.

Hmmm, MLRS sounds strange :)

- ROF, yes, Rate of Fire. That's what I meant. I was just using the wrong words. Anyway, a second is rather fast. Watch a clock that indicates seconds. Then imagine an unit firing every time a second passes. You would say that ROF is the inverse of Cool Down. But in the ini file it says ROF 60 to the rockets. So its actually the cool down instead. I guess it has to do with the frame rate.

The game has different game speeds. They are dividing various things by a number. ROF is one of them. If you can find somewhere the game speeds. And then simply test the re firing of a weapon. Then you could determine if ROF is based on frame rate or time(internal clock).

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Ah yes, the Rockstorm Games, dune game. I remember. But it's a really small group. I think they have given up since no-one came to help. Or they got busy with other things. I know how that goes. It's hard to get back to the job after a while. That's why I do little things each day.

They had Good art!

And they had a new infantry system?

It was very promising. It would really be a shame if they didn't continue.

[Nyerguds]

Perhaps the covert ops added ini files.

Um, what? I just SAID I made all these inis myself. C&C1 never had any ini files with internal stats. I made them, and I'm planning to hack the game so it actually uses them, too. I already succeeded in that for the game music.

Also, MRLS stands for Mobile Rocket Launch System. €750; stupid of me to forget that there was this SSM-Launcher. Yet I remember that one as SSML. Then again, the 3 tanks with cannons where LIGT, MEDT and MMTT.

Hmmm, MLRS sounds strange :)

Yeeah, you're remembering all of that completely wrong. It's LTNK, MTNK and HTNK. In RA1 it's even 1TNK (light tank), 2TNK (med tank), 3TNK (heavy tank) and 4TNK (mammoth tank) :P

You would say that ROF is the inverse of Cool Down. But in the ini file it says ROF 60 to the rockets. So its actually the cool down instead. I guess it has to do with the frame rate.

As I said, I don't know, but I think it's actually "delay between shots". As for the seconds, I mean that for balancing, they might want to be more accurate, to make a cooldown of, like, 2.4 seconds.

The game has different game speeds. They are dividing various things by a number. ROF is one of them. If you can find somewhere the game speeds. And then simply test the re firing of a weapon. Then you could determine if ROF is based on frame rate or time(internal clock).

Oh, that's easy. Everything is calculated on middle game speed. In terms of mission making, each time unit is one minute, on middle game speed.

[THE AQIB]

Well atleast they came till here that is something great. But i don't want it's ui to be lyk ebfd but keep it's niceness.

[X3M]

Going to ask a friend of mine who actually had this editor. Sorry to say, but I remember clearly that it looked like an ini file. Not saying it was one. And it was defiantly the DOS version of C&C. But then again, in the Netherlands, strange things happen behind the curtains. Plus, he is a programmer too. Who knows where he got it from. He got it included with the DOS version of the game, that's also a sure thing. Somewhere between 17 and 13 years ago. He is 28 now.

LIGT, must have been a joke, since it's also a "wrong" dutch word for licht winch means light :). (ch is pronounced as g in the Netherlands)

And my manual for C&C95 also says MRLS. If you want, I can scan this one tomorrow. The manual also contains other mistakes. Build time for turret is 17 according to it, while it's clearly 40. And the Refinery also is build in 40, not 133 like it should.

Came back on this later.

I hope he still has a copy after all those years. Because I want to prove it :). It's fun to have different versions of the game without realizing.

PS,

Is it possible to have an editor that changes the hardcode of C&C? While it looks like some sort of ini?

When did you create your first ini file? And did you share it with others back then?

And something tells me you know dutch. And perhaps dutch people ? Lets say, age 28-29?

I am searching the internet and found the following.

O my, this one seems frustrated:

Guest_Guest_*

Guest_Guest_*

Posted 11 March 2006 - 02:30 AM

I call all your guys B.S. about there not being a rules.ini in either C&C dos or C&C Gold. Explain how I remember that being the first ini file I ever edited in my life and how it worked to modify the game. I never was able to find the dang thing though and it really annoys me that I lost my copy I had downloaded off the net when it first came out and now no where has this rules.ini. Very frustrating why don't the morons who extracted it or made it or whatever share that working Rules.ini on the net again so I can edit my original C&C with ease again. & stop wasting web space talking bs about it not existing or if it did it wouldn't work, because I know for a fact it did exist and it did indead work I used to use it.

Got that from http://forums.revora...es/page__st__20

I should contact him :) that he isn't the only one.

And you are there too.

[Nyerguds]

I got a collection of all editors from back then... and all released C&C versions, too, in fact. I'm also 28 (almost 29), and, for the record, as my user information under my avatar says, I'm Flemish :P

As far as I know, the only data editors for DOS C&C are CCEDT and CCEdit. I got a pic of CCEDT here, if you want. CCEdit has too many versions with different graphics to go and make screenies of them all though. I also think CCEdit v4.0 doesn't work on Dosbox because of its weird graphical requirements X_x

You may be confusing it with missions though. C&C missions use these same unit codes, and are also ini files.

As for your questions...

-The TibEd editor generates ini code that could technically be copied out into one big ini file

-I made my inis in early 2012.

-The aforementioned CCEDT is made by Wladimir Van Der Laan, who is Dutch. So is the creator of TibEd (Koen Van De Sande). In fact, the first decent map editor for C&C1, CCMap, is also made by two Dutch people, Jeroen Ritmeijer and Richard Heesbeen. To top it off, the creator of the XCC utilities, Olaf Van Der Spek, is also a Dutchie. The Netherlands seems to pretty much be the origin of C&C modding.

-I HAVE seen a fake C&C1 rules.ini going around before, though, but it was based on the RA one, and since a lot of it contained RA data I could see it was, in fact, fake :P (for example, the values for unit speed are totally different in RA1. The C&C ones seem to be used differently since they're all about twice as high)

And my manual for C&C95 also says MRLS.

So? The Rocket Launcher IS the MLRS. The internal unit code "MLRS", however, refers to the SSM launcher. I know it's illogical, but that's the way it is. Blame Westwood.

Both units are built on the basic MLRS chassis, btw.

[edit]

Oh. You mean MLRS vs. MRLS. No, MLRS means "Multiple Launch Rocket System".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M270_Multiple_Launch_Rocket_System

[Feda]

Going off-topic.

[THE AQIB]

This is about dune and it's problems... Going of topic dudes...

[X3M]

You're right. It IS kinda getting off topic.

Ehmmmmm, are there any projects running regarding Dune 2 or Dune 2000 that have better quality? Yet keeping the game intact? I am talking about balance and graphics. Dune 2000 has both over Dune 2 in my opinion. Just some little tweaks in balance like nerving the Sonic Tank and stuff.

You know what, post a list of units that you find imbalanced in Dune 2000 and tell me why ^^.

The Sonic Tank was a good start. It's good in amass maps. So reduce damage yet increase firing rate. Or reduce income. You have no idea how much influence the rate of income has on a game.

[THE AQIB]

I'm building the game. Remaking it. Dune 2k i mean.