"Law" and "Good"

[Egeides]

Yes, I feel so boring this morning that I discuss about law. But it's not unmotivated: The bunch of crazies at PirateBay are trying to buy Sealand to make it "Sealand of File Sharing" (http://buysealand.com/), which basically is to form a country of no law... for the "good of all". Did someone miss something or laws are supposed to be for the good of all?

(re-edit: They changed from Sealand to some tropical island. And they now offer us an entertaining look at the formation of "neo-hippy" projects in real time - "Freedom Island": http://forum.buysealand.com/viewtopic.php?t=937)

[Anathema]

Assuming the Royal Navy isn't stripped to the point that they can't send out a single gunboat, the UK should just end this sharade and send "Sealand" to the bottom of the Channel.

[Acriku]

Then again, a data haven would be very promising. Servers with enormous storage governed by none but the flow of information. I figure that's partly why PB is doing this.

[Caid Ivik]

These people have nice ideas somewhat like W.Gibson's alternativists, who buy abandoned space stations, in his novels, on the other hand...how can one think, that he can separate himself physically without separating from the global net as well? Why bother then, I may go to a monastery and have peace from the bad laws as well...

[Dude_Doc]

One can actually find these plases everywhere. In Germany, for example, there are these "occupied buildings" - no one "owns" them, they have all been abandoned, but people live there (mostly anarchists etc). Then we have tons and miles of underground spaces, where no one has been except the ones that built it, and so forth.

Or - legalise downloading and get over this problem.

[Egeides]

Or - legalise downloading and get over this problem.

This does not make much of an argument since we could say this for any law. "Stop blocking it, and whattever opposition wont be a problem anymore." It would do for professional assassins just as anything else.

In fact, I'm a bit surprised that this argument is used alot despite that.

[Anathema]

One can actually find these plases everywhere. In Germany, for example, there are these "occupied buildings" - no one "owns" them, they have all been abandoned, but people live there (mostly anarchists etc). Then we have tons and miles of underground spaces, where no one has been except the ones that built it, and so forth.

Or - legalise downloading and get over this problem.

"Squatters" is the word you're looking for.

In the Netherlands, if a plot of land doesn't have an owner anymore the land becomes property of the state. I'm pretty sure that it's the same in Germany.

[Caid Ivik]

This does not make much of an argument since we could say this for any law. "Stop blocking it, and whattever opposition wont be a problem anymore." It would do for professional assassins just as anything else.

In fact, I'm a bit surprised that this argument is used alot despite that.

Difference is, that murder has a clear victim. Target loses life. Same by thievery: victim loses an item, which is taken by thief. With digital documents, which are technically very easy to copy, 'victim' has only potential losses. The same loses as a railroad company has, when you buy a car instead of travelling by train. On the other hand, one illegaly downladen document may popularize the producer, and encourage then others that their products are worth buying (as in case of WoW amateur servers, for example). What we lack here is clear definition of  'property' and harmony between technical possibilities and user-culture.

[Dude_Doc]

This does not make much of an argument since we could say this for any law. "Stop blocking it, and whattever opposition wont be a problem anymore." It would do for professional assassins just as anything else.

Sure, but this is a mass-movement. Millions of people have downloaded stuff from the net. I agree that we should find some kind of compromise instead of criminalizing millions of young people. If you really want to stop the "pirate-movement", then you simply have to stop the development of the internet - maybe even revert it to the old 8k tele-modem, then it would be useless to download anything.

I mean, in the future it will surely become much easier to download 10 movies in one hour, then maybe in one minute, you will probably be able to download your whole music store in one day - the only way of stopping this is probably to monitor every single computer in every country for "criminal activity".

"Squatters" is the word you're looking for.

In the Netherlands, if a plot of land doesn't have an owner anymore the land becomes property of the state. I'm pretty sure that it's the same in Germany.

Right.

On the other hand, one illegaly downladen document may popularize the producer, and encourage then others that their products are worth buying (as in case of WoW amateur servers, for example).

As well as putting pressure on the movie and music industry. There is a great hidden cost to "protecting" and "restricting" properties from getting copied.

What we lack here is clear definition of  'property' and harmony between technical possibilities and user-culture.

The industry has already made it clear that all copies equals the original product. Society has to change, or most probably people will change it themselves.

[Caid Ivik]

A law has to be accepted from both sides of market, if it is to maintain it. If  'industry' ignores reality of file-copy function for more than 20 years in most of operating systems, we cannot say that 'society has to change'. If a producer makes 2000 legal copies worth 200 crowns each, and there are made 10 000 illegal copies, does he produced enough to declare, that he lost 2 000 000 to piracy? Basic economics fail here. Solution is either by higher performative services (music concerts, providing of gaming servers) or in inhibiting the technological base. Like to put barriers for copying into operation systems...

[Egeides]

Present laws are unadapted. Yet, eliminating some laws would not address the question of how to give everyone his due. A few models are competing, including an overall tax so everyone can go at will. I think it was pushed or even done by France (typical).

One issue is that companies do not want to end up as the losers, and they blocked from VHS to CDs (and electric car or whattever). If some search a middle-road between them and "free" and simply go hald/half, it might be a mess and artificially bring oranges where apples were needed (pointless barriers, money to intermediaries...).

[Dude_Doc]

If  'industry' ignores reality of file-copy function for more than 20 years in most of operating systems, we cannot say that 'society has to change'.

Well, the government has to change. Out of 20 big and small parties, only three have openly said that filesharing should be legalized in some way.   

If a producer makes 2000 legal copies worth 200 crowns each, and there are made 10 000 illegal copies, does he produced enough to declare, that he lost 2 000 000 to piracy? Basic economics fail here.

Agreed. And the number of loss is also flexible in a way, I mean, if you go and see a new movie in a theatre in Sweden, you pay around 100 crowns, does that mean that the producer lost half of what he claimed (i.e. 1 milion), because people downloaded it instead of seeing it in a theatre? Or what if you have a movie night and see the movie with 10 other friends, has the producer lost 2000 crowns then? Or go to a party and listen to 10 cds?

Like to put barriers for copying into operation systems...

Like they apparently will do with Windows Vista - they say it will be "harder to download and use media", and all kinds of stuff that makes it seem like a big waste of money.

If some search a middle-road between them and "free" and simply go hald/half, it might be a mess and artificially bring oranges where apples were needed (pointless barriers, money to intermediaries...).

Google Video is also a good example of making some kind of compromise. Not so good quality, or good sound, but it's the movie. I mean, most "consumers" of movies and music do actually buy the product if they know it's good, and want the thing with good quality and all. Of course, some will always download without buying, but isn't this the case with just about everything? Most people drive cars normally, but there will always be those who use cars like idiots, or drunks, risking the lives of everybody else.