Scenario editing questions

[Nyerguds]

It's irritating that these house limits aren't separated into unit types, otherwise you could neatly divide the available number of units of each type over the different sides... fixing the idiotic rule that the AI can kill your unit production by making lots of units

[MrFlibble]

fixing the idiotic rule that the AI can kill your unit production by making lots of units

Or vice versa, which is even more probable since the MaxUnit limitation does not affect Starport orders IIRC :)

I think all those limits were just built in because of the back-them technical limitations. But it is also a plausible assumption that in the earlier missions, the commander is not authorized to have control over contingents of units as large as in the later missions when he's promoted to higher ranks.

There's certain evidence to suggest that the Atreides campaign was done first, and maybe later the devs decided that the limits lower than 25 are unpractical. But anyway, I believe it could be worth giving a try, and check if this really affects gameplay or difficulty.

[MrFlibble]

I checked the Atreides missions where the unit limit is below 25, and it turned out to be true only for the AI opponents. The MaxUnit for the Atreides player is set to 25 in all missions. So actually this was done to make the missions easier.

[MrFlibble]

I can't seem to place any walls with duneedit, I'm fairly sure this was posted somewhere in this, or in the dune editing forum but I'm having problems finding it. An explanation of the various unit commands (ambush etc) would be helpful too!

I suggest you use TCH's Dune 2 Scenario Editor instead. It has maximum functionality you may need for building a Dune II scenario :)

Here's a brief explanation of unit commands:

Ambush means a unit will remain in position until sighted by the player, and then proceed to attack any enemy units it might find on the map.

Hunt makes a unit start from its position towards enemy units, even if the player has not sighted the AI (normally the AI will not attack until there has been a contact between the player's and the AI's units). Also works for human units, they'll go towards any enemy units on the map just as the mission starts.

Area Guard is the most common command for pre-placed AI units. They will scan for targets in a relatively large radius, and return to their original position after their target was either destroyed or left the immediate area.

Sabotage is the default command for Saboteurs, who will head towards the highest priority enemy structure on the map and attempt to destroy it. Other infantry with this order will head towards an enemy structure and enter it, either dealing damage or capturing it.

[MrFlibble]

There are 2 possible ways to create a unit:

Give the Index

Don't give the Index

If you do the former, the unit is _always_ created, given that the index is free. So you can create 100 sandworms if you like, under the condition you give them all an unique index.

If you do the latter, the unit is only created if it fits in the range for that type. If there is no more room, the unit is not created.

So, in theory, it is complete bullshit to give sandworms a range, as they are always created via the scenario, and get assigned an index by the scenario. Therefore, it is easy possible to have 3 sandworms. Just it is never possible to have 3 saboteurs (or you need to create them via the scenario :P)

Hm, I'm pretty sure the game removes all extra pre-placed units that do not fit into the range. Even if you place, say, four Saboteurs in a scenario, only two will actually appear on the map. Same with Sandworms: I checked their limits, and in v1.07 they really reduced the max number of Sandworms to 2. No matter how many Sandworms I placed on the map, it were always 2 in v1.07, and 3 in v1.0.

You are absolutely right; scenario-unit-create ignores the given index completely and uses an index from the range (I didn't expect this ..). So sandworms are in 1.07eu always limited to a max of 2 (any others in the scenario are ignored; the ones defined first are used), no matter what, no exceptions. Well .. unless you modify the savegame, but that is another story ;)

Heh, I've always wondered why in the original scenarios, unit IDs are never below 22 (sometimes they start around 27); sandworms have IDs above 22 as well :) Most third-party scenario editors change the IDs so that they form a normal numerical list starting with 0 or 1 though.

So can anyone tell me for sure if giving the pre-placed units ID numbers that are outside their designated arrays can produce any negative side-effects?

I can't get off that weird feeling that the AI efficiency somehow dropped compared to what it was when I first implemented the team bug fix. Another cause might be that I changed the EXE version from 1.07US to 1.07EU. Or maybe it's just me :)

[MrFlibble]

I'm also certain that there can be more than 2 Sandworms on the map at any given time... (e.g. in early missions, there are usually 3 Sandworms placed on the map)

Three sandworms on the map turned out to be pretty rare (this happens in some early Atreides missions, and in one Harkonnen mission). The third one does not appear in v1.07 anyway.

It is interesting to note that in most original mission files, Sandworms indeed have correct index values, which differ between v1.0 and v1.07: in v1.0 they have ID019 and ID020, and in v1.07, where the array ranges for Sandworms and Saboteurs were swapped, these are changed to ID016 and ID017. This might indicate that correct indexes for pre-placed units do matter. However, in some missions Sandworms have ID024, ID025 and ID030 instead (both in v1.0 and in v1.07, as this was not fixed).

[drnovice]

Take off from forgotten things this topic. ;)

MrFibble do you have discovered any interesting things about your tests on Teams behavior (normal, kamikaze, staging, flee)?

In particular I'd like to know what is "Flee", something about avoid the attacks?

I noticed that "Normal" is balanced between attack and defense, but I think that with this behavior Threat value is no longer a priority, infact with setting that I described in .exe mods topic, AI attacked randomly also factories before Refineries or Silos.

Can you confirm about this?

And about 'Thopters production (Winged), maybe just set ONE single entry with 1,1 min & max numbers so production is limited for flying.

[MrFlibble]

Take off from forgotten things this topic. ;)

MrFibble do you have discovered any interesting things about your tests on Teams behavior (normal, kamikaze, staging, flee)?

In particular I'd like to know what is "Flee", something about avoid the attacks?

I haven't tested the unused team types extensively, IIRC Staging is more defensive and Flee acts like some sort of hit-and-run tactic. However, I'm not 100% sure about it because it's sort of difficult to discover the differences between teams as the AI, as I remember, does some basic things with teams whenever any are specified.

When I was playing around with the team types, it seemed natural to give the AI only teams of the currently examined type in the test scenario. However, doing so showed that the AI still assigns various tasks to the teams it builds, like defending the base (you know, when a team sits somewhere halfway between the AI's base and the player's) and attacking.

I'm pretty certain TrueBrain or Xaroth mentioned something regarding the team types they discovered from the code, but I can't remember what exactly and where it is.

I noticed that "Normal" is balanced between attack and defense, but I think that with this behavior Threat value is no longer a priority, infact with setting that I described in .exe mods topic, AI attacked randomly also factories before Refineries or Silos.

Can you confirm about this?

I can't say anything for sure but I heavily suspect that the threat value is not the only factor in picking targets. There might be others like proximity of a target to current units, or maybe its absolute position on the map.

If you have played Command & Conquer (which I'm sure you have), you might have noticed that when the AI has aistrikes, the planes always target the player's unit or structure that is the closes to the top left corner of the screen (Nyer, correct me it its actually the top right corner ;)). Anyway, it could be possible that similar rules for selecting AI targets exist in Dune II too.

And about 'Thopters production (Winged), maybe just set ONE single entry with 1,1 min & max numbers so production is limited for flying.

I'm not sure if it's going to work, as the 'thopters have their own AI and different behaviour from ground units. As for the production, the team scripts actually have nothing to do with that (unlike Command & Conquer, for example). As TrueBrain indicated, the AI always produces units from all available factories, and is only limited by the amount of credits it has:

I have no clue yet about when it decides to produce what. What I do know:

It keeps on building units and structures till credits run out (I don't know if it starts a building, all I know is that if it started it keeps on going). When money runs out, it keeps on trying to resume (it doesn't need a manual resume like humans do).

There's a parameter in unit stats that tells the AI some units have more priority than others, so that it builds more Combat Tanks and Siege Tanks than Rocket Launchers, and never builds MCVs and Harvesters.

Also note that you can only specify 15 attack teams in a scenario - entries #16 and above are ignored. With three AI opponents, as in the last mission, this is already a serious limitation.

[Nyerguds]

If you have played Command & Conquer (which I'm sure you have), you might have noticed that when the AI has aistrikes, the planes always target the player's unit or structure that is the closes to the top left corner of the screen (Nyer, correct me it its actually the top right corner ;)). Anyway, it could be possible that similar rules for selecting AI targets exist in Dune II too.

Nope, that's correct. Top left to top right, and then down row by row, left to right on each one, onwards to bottom right. Map cells count from left to right, wrapping at the 64-cell mark, just like in Dune II, and it just uses the first target it finds.

[Thalur]

MrFibble do you have discovered any interesting things about your tests on Teams behavior (normal, kamikaze, staging, flee)?

In particular I'd like to know what is "Flee", something about avoid the attacks?

I noticed that "Normal" is balanced between attack and defense, but I think that with this behavior Threat value is no longer a priority, infact with setting that I described in .exe mods topic, AI attacked randomly also factories before Refineries or Silos.

Can you confirm about this?

And about 'Thopters production (Winged), maybe just set ONE single entry with 1,1 min & max numbers so production is limited for flying.

Some more information on team AI and general campaign info can be found in the Dune II Scenario Format Specification.