Judaism vs. Christianity (split from Nature of Islam topic)

[Caid Ivik]

"Hinduism" itself is so wide term, that it would be a very daring attempt to force its theses into a coherent logical system. Let's compare ie teachings in Bhagavadgitha and cult of Varuna, they focus on different things and so they have a different practice. Buddhism is one of such ways as well, altough well-developed. Judaism, as a religion based on very strict theses, which had no place and time to differentiate, as it was bound to a small nation. Christianity, itself originally one of few jewish sects, is international since the beginning, and so it isn't only a well-developed sect, but a new religion with new theses.

[TMA_1]

buddhism isnt really an athiestic belief. Really the buddha wanted to seperate his philosophy with the dogmatic beliefs of the hindu holy men. Because of this he completely seperated his philosophies with the concepts of any sort of higher power. He did not dispell any beliefs in a primal force, he only said that it wasent in his perview to speak of the issue. Because of this, Theists, Deists, Agnostics, and Athiests all can be buddhists. It also depends on what branch of buddhism you follow.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Just wanted to comment on the Jesus body-snatching theory.

1.) Roman soldiers were placed at his tomb to guard it precisely because the romans didnt want his body stolen so that christians couldnt  claim he "arose"

2.) Roman soldiers were very serious when it came to their duties and would not have left their posts lightly.

3.) The boulder sealing his tomb was not easily movable.

SO its very unlikely that some jews just strolled up, rolled the boulder away (while the roman guards watched) and ran off with the body.

Also Jesus cant be an angel.. because all other angels in the bible who have people kneel before them and worship are told ... DO NOT WORSHIP ME.   Jesus never forbade anyone to worship him.  Which contradicts chatfish's theory that Jesus earned godship by being totally humble.  Professing to be God and not forbidding worship of yourself is not a very servant-like or humble thing to do.

Also as far as the trinity is concerned..... God is infintely dimnesional, if you are unfamiliar with the flat-lander story or how a 3 dimensional body would cross-section a 2-D plane.  Please read up on your theoretical physics to understand how one entity could be manifested in a lower dimension and still be "one"

I'll give a brief breakdown for the lazy.

Imagine a 2-D plane. Like the surface of a lake.  Imagine i step into the lake.  My legs will get cross-sectioned as two circles in this plane.  If there were any "beings" in this 2 Dimensional realm... they would see me manifested as two circles.  Therefore, I would appear to be two creatures.  When the reality is that i am one entity simply being cross-sectioned in another dimension.

When an angel manifests itself as a person in the Bible, it is merely cross-sectioning itself like i did to myself in the lake.  So technically ONE angel could make itself appear as a group of people if it wanted it.  Just like i can have one of legs cross-sectioned in the lake and appear as one circle or i can put all 4 limbs in and appear as 4 different entities.

Not only that.... but while i am cross-sectioning myself in the 2-D lake plane... i still exist in 3-D space as well.  It would be absurd to say that just because a cross-sectioned circle of myself exists in the 2-D plane of the lake WHILE i am existing in 3-D space outside of the lake.... that i am somehow  2 different people.

Not only that.... but if the cells existing in the cross-section of my leg within the lake were to communicate with my brain, via nerve impulse thru spinal cord, all of which is existing in the 3-D space outside of the lake....it also would be absurd to say that i am two different people.  Yet when Jesus communicates with God thru prayer we find it inconceivable.

Call it mental gymnastics... call it what you will...... i find nothing wrong with using higher-order thinking to attempt to understand God who is so complex.....because simplistic comments to pigeon-hole him are absurd IMO.  I find the phrase "mental gymnastics" to be offensive in a way because it is stigmatizing people who want to use thought-processes higher than that of basic elementary levels.

The "emperor's clothes defense" works if you're talking about something as simple as clothes. However we're talking about an infinitely dimensionally, powerful, amazing God.  So you'd better start doing some mental gymnastics or you'll miss the boat.

Guns

 

[Acriku]

Just wanted to comment on the Jesus body-snatching theory.

1.) Roman soldiers were placed at his tomb to guard it precisely because the romans didnt want his body stolen so that christians couldnt  claim he "arose"

2.) Roman soldiers were very serious when it came to their duties and would not have left their posts lightly.

3.) The boulder sealing his tomb was not easily movable.

You're considering the unlikeliness of the situation based off of what you read in the Bible. Getting dizzy with those circles you're making? Point three is outright subjective, and point two is overgeneralizing the entire Roman fleet. The main point is, the snatch theory answers more questions than the resurrection theory without bringing up further questions. Also, you're more likely to have a "sacrifice" if the "sacrificed person" (namely, Jesus) does not come back to life, spiritually or physically. I'd accept the snatch theory because it displays an infinitely larger sacrifice (meaning, eternity in Hell, without rising out of it) than spending three days in Hell and saying "Hey I'm coming back up! The fire is WAY too hot down here, and these demon children will not stop biting my heels! I'm SERIOUS GOD!"

[GUNWOUNDS]

You're considering the unlikeliness of the situation based off of what you read in the Bible. Getting dizzy with those circles you're making? Point three is outright subjective, and point two is overgeneralizing the entire Roman fleet. The main point is, the snatch theory answers more questions than the resurrection theory without bringing up further questions. Also, you're more likely to have a "sacrifice" if the "sacrificed person" (namely, Jesus) does not come back to life, spiritually or physically. I'd accept the snatch theory because it displays an infinitely larger sacrifice (meaning, eternity in Hell, without rising out of it) than spending three days in Hell and saying "Hey I'm coming back up! The fire is WAY too hot down here, and these demon children will not stop biting my heels! I'm SERIOUS GOD!"

Regardless..... The roman soldiers were put there to guard the tomb.  I highly doubt some average jewish men waltzed their way up there and got past some Roman Guards.  I'd place my bets on the guards.  We're talking roman guards, not walmart security.  Also Jesus was pretty high-profile.  I highly doubt that they just left his tomb unguarded for any tom, dick, and harry to grab.  There obviously was a security detail guarding the tomb and it was in the Roman's best interest to keep any intruders from fulfilling the "Lord has arisen" prophecy.  For the Romans... keeping the corpse of the christian's leader locked in a tomb was priority #1.  Even the pharisees who hated Jesus went to pilate asking for guards to be placed.  The tomb was "sealed 7 times" .... and roman guards could be executed for taking bribes or sleeping on duty.

I'd accept the snatch theory because it displays an infinitely larger sacrifice (meaning, eternity in Hell, without rising out of it) than spending three days in Hell and saying "Hey I'm coming back up! The fire is WAY too hot down here, and these demon children will not stop biting my heels! I'm SERIOUS GOD!"

Edrico already addressed this by saying no regular man could bear all the world's sin... as well as it wouldnt have been fair for God to ask any man to do such a thing, and that it IS MEANINGFUL, because since God is in an eternal present .... in a sense, suffering on the cross is eternal for God.

Also why does an explanation have to NOT raise anymore questions?  Why does God and all of His laws and ideas, etc, etc, have to fit nice and neatly inside of a little box than you can quantify and analyze?  With God there will always be questions because we can never know what He knows or understand why He works the way He does.  Its a symptom of man that has plagued us from the beginning.... the desire to completely understand God and put Him in a box and the frustration that ensues when we cannot.  Dont hold your breathe.

Its like saying... oh me telling my wife that i got kidnapped by drug dealers and couldnt make it to dinner on time (even tho its true)  will just raise more questions.  I'll just tell her i had a flat tire.  Its just more believable.... even tho i REALLY got kidnapped.... it just raises too many questions.

Guns

[TMA_1]

In the Epistles, Paul speaks of something rather beautifully, mentioning the Godhead of Christ at the same moment. Paul says that the commandments are a symbol of all mankind falling short of perfection. That Sin has brought us physical and spiritual death. He says something profound, that there is no hope strictly in this lifetime, so we must abandon it! We cannot win and will die in sin, but Christ saved us from this, and though we must die in sin, we live in holiness thereafter! We cannot win in sin, but must overcome after death. Christ basically changed the rules, allowing a new path out of death to a new sort of life.

[Acriku]

In the Epistles, Paul speaks of something rather beautifully, mentioning the Godhead of Christ at the same moment. Paul says that the commandments are a symbol of all mankind falling short of perfection. That Sin has brought us physical and spiritual death. He says something profound, that there is no hope strictly in this lifetime, so we must abandon it! We cannot win and will die in sin, but Christ saved us from this, and though we must die in sin, we live in holiness thereafter! We cannot win in sin, but must overcome after death. Christ basically changed the rules, allowing a new path out of death to a new sort of life.

How did he save us? by spending 3 days in hell for us? That makes no sense. Jesus is God, so God basically just made it acceptable for us to get into heaven. More when I return tonight...

[TMA_1]

its much more than that. We can use the term holiness which really fits well here. God is not imperfect, and yet we know that humankind is imperfect. God is holy and we are not. Christ, who knew no sin, being holy, died for the whole of humanity. Now Christ needed to ascend to heaven in order to overcome death, and once he was resurrected, he ascended over the sin that was placed on him making him the first fruits. We are to follow him through death to life in order to attain holiness, thre is no other way. It isnt just a matter of getting to heaven. Look at it as a means to transcend  imperfection.

Most religions believe in the concept of works, doing things in a righteous manner in order to ascend into perfection. Some philosophies in a very different angle throw this whole concept out the window. Believing that one must slowly evolve from bad karma through many eons of human existance.

These deal in meddling with humanity and the system of the world which is currupt. Christ came to deliver us from the state of things that cannot change. Death cannot be stopped since it is the nature of this reality, but through christ one can transcend death to new life, not from our own works but through christ's perfect work.

[Acriku]

Forgot to post more in here... ah well.

Just for clarification: Jesus did not die for the whole of humanity. He died for Christians and Christians-to-be. I am still going to hell, mind you, so he hardly died for me nor saved me. Also, why did Christ need to overcome death? He's still dead, technically, since his spirit rose into heaven and not his body. But as far as his soul getting to heaven, why was this needed?  The Ultimate Sacrifice usually involves giving up something. Jesus gave nothing up but three days. Hardly an "ultimate" "sacrifice."

[Caid Ivik]

I am still going to hell, mind you, so he hardly died for me nor saved me.

Well, you are free to see it as you want. Not even our mighty Catholic Church would burn you to protect you from it. Do what thou wilt  ;D

[GUNWOUNDS]

Forgot to post more in here... ah well.

Just for clarification: Jesus did not die for the whole of humanity. He died for Christians and Christians-to-be. I am still going to hell, mind you, so he hardly died for me nor saved me. Also, why did Christ need to overcome death? He's still dead, technically, since his spirit rose into heaven and not his body. But as far as his soul getting to heaven, why was this needed?  The Ultimate Sacrifice usually involves giving up something. Jesus gave nothing up but three days. Hardly an "ultimate" "sacrifice."

It was the ultimate sacrifice because the Bible says when we enter heaven Jesus will still appear as a slain/broken lamb.  His scars will still be visible.  When he was the "Word" back in the old testament He was pure and without blemish.  Now, altho he is still divine he is "not the same" after being hit with all of mankind's past present and future sins.  To have a part of God take flesh form and be desecrated, momentarily seperated from the godhead (like amputating an arm and reattaching it...hence he screamed out on the cross in agony "why have you forsaken me?), then to be permanently changed in your spiritual form, a big price to pay.  Desecrating Him in flesh form was enough, but much more was done than just that.  God actually felt pain that day.... not just the knowledge of pain ... but actually divine amputation of himself.  We as mere mortals cannot even comprehend what that must have been like for God to have done that to Himself.  Hence most people cannot comprehend why it was such an ultimate sacrifice.

God didnt have to do any of that.  He could have saved Himself any degradation, humiliation, pain, disturbance within His own Godhead, etc ... He could have just wiped us away with a thought and decided to make something else.  Instead He chose redemption.

And if you are truly destined to hell acriku.... that is sad... however it does serve another purpose.  It serves to make this world "real" by showing that there is consequence to all actions thereby establishing meaning in the universe.

Think about a video game..... when you play it on God Mode... there is no fun.... there is no consequence.... there is no meaning.... when you play it regularly it has meaning.  Imagine if you played Oblivion and you had to delete your character and throw away the disc upon your character dying.  It would make every decision you made in that game extremely meaningful.  Going into that next dungeon would be something you would think HARD about.  Reminds me of the matrix when Agent Smith said that they had to change the program of the matrix..... because a world with no consequence was something we couldnt handle and people began waking up....and many crops were lost.

Guns