TMA_1 Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 This is a short post, but I really just want to get a feel of what you guys in europe feel about the riots, and if there was really any point to them. I hear some say that it is because the rights of some muslims were discriminated against. it seems to me that thousands of cars and dozens of churches being firebombed is completely outrageous. Why is this justified? and why are so many so quick to defend stuff like this? I mean even the slightest attack against these riots seems to bring leftist oriented people crying out in absolute anger, it is so single minded and ideological it frankly pisses me off. What the hell is this all about? How many people really are defensive about these riots? my goodness it just frustrates me. And why is it that muslims are so quickly avenged of any attack when other religions that are slandored and attacked in the media or in day to day life are just forgotten about? It is a sign of something, I dont know how else to logically explain it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edric O Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 Because these weren't religious riots. Granted, the majority of the rioters were nominally Muslim, but none of them expressed any kind of religious sentiment and most of them weren't practicing Muslims anyway. Some Islamist groups tried to get religion into the riots, but their calls fell on deaf ears.The majority of the rioters weren't immigrants either. That was one of the main reasons why they rioted. Their parents or grandparents were immigrants, but they are French, born and raised - many of them haven't even travelled outside France in their lives - yet they are disenfranchised, discriminated against because of their skin colour, and left to suffer in poverty. They live in slums, in crumbling old buildings or on the streets, and the government simply ignores them and pretends the problem does not exist.The riots are simply a manifestation of despair on the part of the poorest section of the French population - whose skin happens to be black.Why do leftist groups believe the riots are justified? For the same reason leftist groups defended similar actions (though on a smaller scale) undertaken by some blacks in the southern United States during the 1960's. This is a struggle for civil rights and social justice - even though the riots were in many ways more of a symptom of despair than a coherent struggle of any sort. The rioters never put forward any demands. They simply felt so destitute and hopeless that they had to scream out "we've had enough!"Granted, the rioters burned many cars and destroyed a lot of property, but how many people did they kill? One. In my book, the poor and exploited have every right to rise up against their oppressors and cause great property damage in the process. Cars can be replaced. It is only when people get hurt that I see any reason to object. And far fewer people got hurt in these riots than in any other uprising of a similar scale that I can think of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vidi Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 I thought is was because two kids were elctrecuted in a substation when hiding from the police ???anyway it has been on the news alot which sucks :( (all those poor cars!!) - vidi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 I don't understand why people would be upset about 2 kids who were killed when running from the police, even though the police claim they were not even after them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edric O Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 The slums were a barrel of gunpowder ready to blow. The two kids who died were just the fuse. It's not as if this is anything new - history is full of examples of minor events that sparked off a huge and disproportionate reaction because they came in the right place at the right time. Gavrilo Princip started WW1 with one bullet, after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caid Ivik Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 Well, Bosna wasn't annected with only one bullet, you know...under each large manifestation of human chaos is a desire. Political, usually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anathema Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 Just shows once again that you can't push an underprivileged, poor and generally uneducated class of society away in massive slums and forget about them.The riots elsewhere in Europe are copycat actions, nothing more then a few burned cars by misguided teens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMA_1 Posted November 19, 2005 Author Share Posted November 19, 2005 hmm, never heard that side of the story before, thanks for giving me another perspective on things.I still harbor bitter feelings towards many of the protesting groups though. It seems to me that many are ideologues. Many support radicalism and yet hold negative feelings towards certain demographics. There seems to be many generalizations made by many of the far left, and it is destructive to many. I have a feeling that these beliefs will take hold with a larger minority in the near future, and that revolution might well occur. It seems to me that a system of government with these kinds of fanatics would be dangerous for christianity. Would you guys agree? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dude_Doc Posted November 19, 2005 Share Posted November 19, 2005 It seems to me that a system of government with these kinds of fanatics would be dangerous for christianity. Would you guys agree?It all implodes onto itself. Christianity teaches to live as equals, in peace, to help each other. What did the white christians in Europe do? They exploited Africa, and then they needed workforce to repair a damage Africa didn't have anything to do with (the rebuilding after WW2). Then, they threw them into slums and forgot about them. So, are they dangerous for these rich, powerful "christians"? Sure, I at least hope so. Hell, true christians should stand on the rioters' side, not the government's or support the rich and the powerful. True christians accept and understand other people's faith and understandings, they live side by side with them. True christians doesn't say "I'm right, do as I say or I will kill you". Christianity today doesn't seem very true to me today - at least not the kind that rich and powerful people claim to believe in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMA_1 Posted November 19, 2005 Author Share Posted November 19, 2005 I have to agree with you otherman. it seems that christianity today has become largely currupt. As I have said many times, western civilization is not condusive to a strong christian environment. I think you are also right that true christians would be wise to join those who fall in line against the large corperations and currupt governments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted November 19, 2005 Share Posted November 19, 2005 France 'needs ethnic statistics' from BBCFrance has no statistics as to who is in their country? They are behind the times and plain stupid for not knowing. Guess they went a bit too far in assuming everyone is the exact same.StatsCan is even predicting Canada's visible minority population in 2017Census of Population: Immigration, birthplace and birthplace of parents, citizenship, ethnic origin, visible minorities and Aboriginal peoples in Canada.In Canada you state pretty much everything about yourself to StatsCan (I think it might even be required sometimes). I even participated (might still be they only contact you every 2 years or so) in a study on Canadian teenagers, started when I was in grade 9 or 10 and had my last interview a year ago or so.Ahh, here is the survey I am participating in:Youth in Transition Survey (I think that is it)Believe me, they ask you everything and anything. Survey takes like 2 hours on the phone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faradn the corrino Posted December 15, 2005 Share Posted December 15, 2005 I'm french and i'll try to say what i think about the riots (although my english is quite bad... sorry).First of all, some newspapers said that it was a sort of war in the suburbs. they don't tell the truth. I live in a suburb, near to Versailles, there are some 'cit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otheymzefedaykin Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 I can't believe that... is it real ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 Is what real?I looked at a google earth placemark thingy and it showed lots more than shown in that image of where riots/cars burnt happened.But that image probably sums it up.Odd, I havn't heard anything new about the riots in a couple weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dude_Doc Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 What I, on the other hand heard, was that the French government is going to find and procecute those who started the riots - that is, not people in the police core. If this is true, then the riots have just begun. And I believe more European countries will follow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nampigai Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 WHY PARIS IS BURNINGby Amir Taheri, November 4, 2005AS THE night falls, the "troubles" start - and the pattern is alwaysthe same.Bands of youths in balaclavas start by setting fire to parked cars,break shop windows with baseball bats, wreck public telephones and ransackcinemas, libraries and schools. When the police arrive on the scene, therioters attack them with stones, knives and baseball bats.The police respond by firing tear-gas grenades and, on occasions,blank shots in the air. Sometimes the youths fire back - with real bullets.These scenes are not from the West Bank but from 20 French cities,mostly close to Paris, that have been plunged into a European version of theintifada that at the time of writing appears beyond control.The troubles first began in Clichy-sous-Bois.By Monday, everyone in Paris was speaking of "an unprecedentedcrisis." Both Sarkozy and his boss, Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin,had to cancel foreign trips to deal with the riots.How did it all start? The accepted account is that sometime lastweek, a group of young boys in Clichy engaged in one of their favoritesports: stealing parts of parked cars.Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police havenot been present in that suburb for years.The problem came when one of the inhabitants telephoned the police and reported the thieving spree taking place justopposite her building. The police were thus obliged to do something - whichmeant entering a city that, as noted, had been a no-go area for them.Once the police arrived on the scene, the youths - who had beenreigning over Clichy pretty unmolested for years - got really angry. A briefchase took place in the street, and two of the youths, who were not actuallychased by the police, sought refuge in a cordoned-off area housing a powerpylon. Both were electrocuted.Once news of their deaths was out, Clichy was all up in arms.With cries of "God is great," bands of youths armed with whateverthey could get hold of went on a rampage and forced the police to flee.The French authorities could not allow a band of youths to expel thepolice from French territory. So they hit back - sending in Special Forces,known as the CRS, with armored cars and tough rules of engagement.Within hours, the original cause of the incidents was forgotten andthe issue jelled around a demand by the representatives of the rioters thatthe French police leave the "occupied territories." By midweek, the riotshad spread to three of the provinces neighboring Paris, with a population of5.5 million.But who lives in the affected areas? In Clichy itself, more than 80percent of the inhabitants are Muslim immigrants or their children, mostlyfrom Arab and black Africa. In other affected towns, the Muslim immigrantcommunity accounts for 30 percent to 60 percent of the population. But theseare not the only figures that matter. Average unemployment in the affectedareas is estimated at around 30 percent and, when it comes to young would-beworkers, reaches 60 percent.In these suburban towns, built in the 1950s in imitation of theSoviet social housing of the Stalinist era, people live in crammedconditions, sometimes several generations in a tiny apartment, and see "realFrench life" only on television.The French used to flatter themselves for the success of theirpolicy of assimilation, which was supposed to turn immigrants from anybackground into "proper Frenchmen" within a generation at most.That policy worked as long as immigrants came to France in drips anddrops and thus could merge into a much larger mainstream. Assimilation,however, cannot work when in most schools in the affected areas, fewer than20 percent of the pupils are native French speakers.France has also lost another powerful mechanism for assimilation:the obligatory military service abolished in the 1990s.As the number of immigrants and their descendants increases in aparticular locality, more and more of its native French inhabitants leavefor "calmer places," thus making assimilation still more difficult.In some areas, it is possible for an immigrant or his descendants tospend a whole life without ever encountering the need to speak French, letalone familiarize himself with any aspect of the famous French culture.The result is often alienation. And that, in turn, gives radicalIslamists an opportunity to propagate their message of religious andcultural apartheid.Some are even calling for the areas where Muslims form a majority ofthe population to be reorganized on the basis of the "millet" system of theOttoman Empire: Each religious community (millet) would enjoy the right toorganize its social, cultural and educational life in accordance with itsreligious beliefs.In parts of France, a de facto millet system is already in place. Inthese areas, all women are obliged to wear the standardized Islamist "hijab"while most men grow their beards to the length prescribed by the sheiks.The radicals have managed to chase away French shopkeepers sellingalcohol and pork products, forced "places of sin," such as dancing halls,cinemas and theaters, to close down, and seized control of much of the localadministration.A reporter who spent last weekend in Clichy and its neighboringtowns of Bondy, Aulnay-sous-Bois and Bobigny heard a single overarchingmessage: The French authorities should keep out."All we demand is to be left alone," said Mouloud Dahmani, one ofthe local "emirs" engaged in negotiations to persuade the French to withdrawthe police and allow a committee of sheiks, mostly from the MuslimBrotherhood, to negotiate an end to the hostilities.President Jacques Chirac and Premier de Villepin are especially sorebecause they had believed that their opposition to the toppling of SaddamHussein in 2003 would give France a heroic image in the Muslim community.That illusion has now been shattered - and the Chiracadministration, already passing through a deepening political crisis,appears to be clueless about how to cope with what the Parisian daily FranceSoir has called a "ticking time bomb."It is now clear that a good portion of France's Muslims not onlyrefuse to assimilate into "the superior French culture," but firmly believethat Islam offers the highest forms of life to which all mankind shouldaspire.So what is the solution? One solution, offered by Gilles Kepel, anadviser to Chirac on Islamic affairs, is the creation of "a new Andalusia"in which Christians and Muslims would live side by side and cooperate tocreate a new cultural synthesis.The problem with Kepel's vision, however, is that it does notaddress the important issue of political power. Who will rule this newAndalusia: Muslims or the largely secularist Frenchmen?Suddenly, French politics has become worth watching again, eventhough for the wrong reasons.Amir Taheri, editor of the French quarterly "Politiqueinternationale," is a member of Benador Associates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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