The Riots in Europe (Specifically France)

[TMA_1]

This is a short post, but I really just want to get a feel of what you guys in europe feel about the riots, and if there was really any point to them. I hear some say that it is because the rights of some muslims were discriminated against. it seems to me that thousands of cars and dozens of churches being firebombed is completely outrageous. Why is this justified? and why are so many so quick to defend stuff like this? I mean even the slightest attack against these riots seems to bring leftist oriented people crying out in absolute anger, it is so single minded and ideological it frankly pisses me off. What the hell is this all about? How many people really are defensive about these riots? my goodness it just frustrates me.

And why is it that muslims are so quickly avenged of any attack when other religions that are slandored and attacked in the media or in day to day life are just forgotten about? It is a sign of something, I dont know how else to logically explain it.

[Edric O]

Because these weren't religious riots. Granted, the majority of the rioters were nominally Muslim, but none of them expressed any kind of religious sentiment and most of them weren't practicing Muslims anyway. Some Islamist groups tried to get religion into the riots, but their calls fell on deaf ears.

The majority of the rioters weren't immigrants either. That was one of the main reasons why they rioted. Their parents or grandparents were immigrants, but they are French, born and raised - many of them haven't even travelled outside France in their lives - yet they are disenfranchised, discriminated against because of their skin colour, and left to suffer in poverty. They live in slums, in crumbling old buildings or on the streets, and the government simply ignores them and pretends the problem does not exist.

The riots are simply a manifestation of despair on the part of the poorest section of the French population - whose skin happens to be black.

Why do leftist groups believe the riots are justified? For the same reason leftist groups defended similar actions (though on a smaller scale) undertaken by some blacks in the southern United States during the 1960's. This is a struggle for civil rights and social justice - even though the riots were in many ways more of a symptom of despair than a coherent struggle of any sort. The rioters never put forward any demands. They simply felt so destitute and hopeless that they had to scream out "we've had enough!"

Granted, the rioters burned many cars and destroyed a lot of property, but how many people did they kill? One. In my book, the poor and exploited have every right to rise up against their oppressors and cause great property damage in the process. Cars can be replaced. It is only when people get hurt that I see any reason to object. And far fewer people got hurt in these riots than in any other uprising of a similar scale that I can think of.

[Vidi]

I thought is was because two kids were elctrecuted in a substation when hiding from the police ???

anyway it has been on the news alot which sucks :( (all those poor cars!!)

- vidi

[Andrew]

I don't understand why people would be upset about 2 kids who were killed when running from the police, even though the police claim they were not even after them.

[Edric O]

The slums were a barrel of gunpowder ready to blow. The two kids who died were just the fuse. It's not as if this is anything new - history is full of examples of minor events that sparked off a huge and disproportionate reaction because they came in the right place at the right time. Gavrilo Princip started WW1 with one bullet, after all.

[Caid Ivik]

Well, Bosna wasn't annected with only one bullet, you know...under each large manifestation of human chaos is a desire. Political, usually.

[Anathema]

Just shows once again that you can't push an underprivileged, poor and generally uneducated class of society away in massive slums and forget about them.

The riots elsewhere in Europe are copycat actions, nothing more then a few burned cars by misguided teens.

[TMA_1]

hmm, never heard that side of the story before, thanks for giving me another perspective on things.

I still harbor bitter feelings towards many of the protesting groups though. It seems to me that many are ideologues. Many support radicalism and yet hold negative feelings towards certain demographics. There seems to be many generalizations made by many of the far left, and it is destructive to many. I have a feeling that these beliefs will take hold with a larger minority in the near future, and that revolution might well occur. It seems to me that a system of government with these kinds of fanatics would be dangerous for christianity. Would you guys agree?

[Dude_Doc]

It seems to me that a system of government with these kinds of fanatics would be dangerous for christianity. Would you guys agree?

It all implodes onto itself. Christianity teaches to live as equals, in peace, to help each other. What did the white christians in Europe do? They exploited Africa, and then they needed workforce to repair a damage Africa didn't have anything to do with (the rebuilding after WW2). Then, they threw them into slums and forgot about them.

So, are they dangerous for these rich, powerful "christians"? Sure, I at least hope so. Hell, true christians should stand on the rioters' side, not the government's or support the rich and the powerful. True christians accept and understand other people's faith and understandings, they live side by side with them. True christians doesn't say "I'm right, do as I say or I will kill you".

Christianity today doesn't seem very true to me today - at least not the kind that rich and powerful people claim to believe in. 

[TMA_1]

I have to agree with you otherman. it seems that christianity today has become largely currupt. As I have said many times, western civilization is not condusive to a strong christian environment. I think you are also right that true christians would be wise to join those who fall in line against the large  corperations and currupt governments.

[Andrew]

France 'needs ethnic statistics' from BBC

France has no statistics as to who is in their country? They are behind the times and plain stupid for not knowing. Guess they went a bit too far in assuming everyone is the exact same.

StatsCan is even predicting Canada's visible minority population in 2017

Census of Population: Immigration, birthplace and birthplace of parents, citizenship, ethnic origin, visible minorities and Aboriginal peoples in Canada.

In Canada you state pretty much everything about yourself to StatsCan (I think it might even be required sometimes).

I even participated (might still be they only contact you every 2 years or so) in a study on Canadian teenagers, started when I was in grade 9 or 10 and had my last interview a year ago or so.

Ahh, here is the survey I am participating in:

Youth in Transition Survey (I think that is it)

Believe me, they ask you everything and anything. Survey takes like 2 hours on the phone.

[faradn the corrino]

I'm french and i'll try to say what i think about the riots (although my english is quite bad... sorry).

First of all, some newspapers said that it was a sort of war in the suburbs. they don't tell the truth. I live in a suburb, near to Versailles, there are some 'cit

[otheymzefedaykin]

I can't believe that... is it real ?

[Andrew]

Is what real?

I looked at a google earth placemark thingy and it showed lots more than shown in that image of where riots/cars burnt happened.

But that image probably sums it up.

Odd, I havn't heard anything new about the riots in a couple weeks.

[Dude_Doc]

What I, on the other hand heard, was that the French government is going to find and procecute those who started the riots - that is, not people in the police core. If this is true, then the riots have just begun. And I believe more European countries will follow.

[nampigai]

WHY PARIS IS BURNING

by Amir Taheri, November 4, 2005

AS THE night falls, the "troubles" start - and the pattern is always

the same.

Bands of youths in balaclavas start by setting fire to parked cars,

break shop windows with baseball bats, wreck public telephones and ransack

cinemas, libraries and schools. When the police arrive on the scene, the

rioters attack them with stones, knives and baseball bats.

The police respond by firing tear-gas grenades and, on occasions,

blank shots in the air. Sometimes the youths fire back - with real bullets.

These scenes are not from the West Bank but from 20 French cities,

mostly close to Paris, that have been plunged into a European version of the

intifada that at the time of writing appears beyond control.

The troubles first began in Clichy-sous-Bois.

By Monday, everyone in Paris was speaking of "an unprecedented

crisis." Both Sarkozy and his boss, Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin,

had to cancel foreign trips to deal with the riots.

How did it all start? The accepted account is that sometime last

week, a group of young boys in Clichy engaged in one of their favorite

sports: stealing parts of parked cars.

Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police have

not been present in that suburb for years.

The problem came when one of the inhabitants telephoned the police and reported the thieving spree taking place just

opposite her building. The police were thus obliged to do something - which

meant entering a city that, as noted, had been a no-go area for them.

Once the police arrived on the scene, the youths - who had been

reigning over Clichy pretty unmolested for years - got really angry. A brief

chase took place in the street, and two of the youths, who were not actually

chased by the police, sought refuge in a cordoned-off area housing a power

pylon. Both were electrocuted.

Once news of their deaths was out, Clichy was all up in arms.

With cries of "God is great," bands of youths armed with whatever

they could get hold of went on a rampage and forced the police to flee.

The French authorities could not allow a band of youths to expel the

police from French territory. So they hit back - sending in Special Forces,

known as the CRS, with armored cars and tough rules of engagement.

Within hours, the original cause of the incidents was forgotten and

the issue jelled around a demand by the representatives of the rioters that

the French police leave the "occupied territories." By midweek, the riots

had spread to three of the provinces neighboring Paris, with a population of

5.5 million.

But who lives in the affected areas? In Clichy itself, more than 80

percent of the inhabitants are Muslim immigrants or their children, mostly

from Arab and black Africa. In other affected towns, the Muslim immigrant

community accounts for 30 percent to 60 percent of the population. But these

are not the only figures that matter. Average unemployment in the affected

areas is estimated at around 30 percent and, when it comes to young would-be

workers, reaches 60 percent.

In these suburban towns, built in the 1950s in imitation of the

Soviet social housing of the Stalinist era, people live in crammed

conditions, sometimes several generations in a tiny apartment, and see "real

French life" only on television.

The French used to flatter themselves for the success of their

policy of assimilation, which was supposed to turn immigrants from any

background into "proper Frenchmen" within a generation at most.

That policy worked as long as immigrants came to France in drips and

drops and thus could merge into a much larger mainstream. Assimilation,

however, cannot work when in most schools in the affected areas, fewer than

20 percent of the pupils are native French speakers.

France has also lost another powerful mechanism for assimilation:

the obligatory military service abolished in the 1990s.

As the number of immigrants and their descendants increases in a

particular locality, more and more of its native French inhabitants leave

for "calmer places," thus making assimilation still more difficult.

In some areas, it is possible for an immigrant or his descendants to

spend a whole life without ever encountering the need to speak French, let

alone familiarize himself with any aspect of the famous French culture.

The result is often alienation. And that, in turn, gives radical

Islamists an opportunity to propagate their message of religious and

cultural apartheid.

Some are even calling for the areas where Muslims form a majority of

the population to be reorganized on the basis of the "millet" system of the

Ottoman Empire:  Each religious community (millet) would enjoy the right to

organize its social, cultural and educational life in accordance with its

religious beliefs.

In parts of France, a de facto millet system is already in place. In

these areas, all women are obliged to wear the standardized Islamist "hijab"

while most men grow their beards to the length prescribed by the sheiks.

The radicals have managed to chase away French shopkeepers selling

alcohol and pork products, forced "places of sin," such as dancing halls,

cinemas and theaters, to close down, and seized control of much of the local

administration.

A reporter who spent last weekend in Clichy and its neighboring

towns of Bondy, Aulnay-sous-Bois and Bobigny heard a single overarching

message: The French authorities should keep out.

"All we demand is to be left alone," said Mouloud Dahmani, one of

the local "emirs" engaged in negotiations to persuade the French to withdraw

the police and allow a committee of sheiks, mostly from the Muslim

Brotherhood, to negotiate an end to the hostilities.

President Jacques Chirac and Premier de Villepin are especially sore

because they had believed that their opposition to the toppling of Saddam

Hussein in 2003 would give France a heroic image in the Muslim community.

That illusion has now been shattered - and the Chirac

administration, already passing through a deepening political crisis,

appears to be clueless about how to cope with what the Parisian daily France

Soir has called a "ticking time bomb."

It is now clear that a good portion of France's Muslims not only

refuse to assimilate into "the superior French culture," but firmly believe

that Islam offers the highest forms of life to which all mankind should

aspire.

So what is the solution? One solution, offered by Gilles Kepel, an

adviser to Chirac on Islamic affairs, is the creation of "a new Andalusia"

in which Christians and Muslims would live side by side and cooperate to

create a new cultural synthesis.

The problem with Kepel's vision, however, is that it does not

address the important issue of political power. Who will rule this new

Andalusia: Muslims or the largely secularist Frenchmen?

Suddenly, French politics has become worth watching again, even

though for the wrong reasons.

Amir Taheri, editor of the French quarterly "Politique

internationale," is a member of Benador Associates.