Stem cells and doppelgangers

[GUNWOUNDS]

Gounwounds, even though you like to think that you have a ph.d in just about every subject known to man, you don't need to call everyone with different views simpletons. This is why I don't post here too often.

The reason you dont post here often is probably due to the fact that you dont really have anything important to say.

[Dante]

Allow me to illustrate. We cannot predict all the paths that DNA alignment will take when cloning another human being, so we must therefore assume that there will be unintended errors. Let's assume for a moment that one such random misalignment of genetic material results in an incurable and undetectable physical, or, dare I say, mental condition that results in either the horrible death, sudden death, miserable life, or whatnot of the cloned human. Let's further assume that we are as liberal as can be and award clones all the rights and privileges of any other member of society. So, the clone marries, and has children, and his children marry and have children -- all of them carrying this new genome. Now, let us assume that, for varying reasons, the codon doesn't operate properly, and only kills when the right conditions are met. You could have an incurable genetic ailment released into the population at large and not even know it until generations after the damage has been done. Worse, what if the natural genetic anamolies we see intermingle with the unintended anamolies we see from cloning? Or, what if multiple clones generate multiple branches of genetic anamolies? Cloning should not be barred from research simply because it is science fiction, and it should not be immediately researched simply because it is a "brave new world of science." It is not as dramatic as all think and will not result in the sudden destruction of our world. But, waiting in the wings of cloning is a severe problem generations down the line that we would most likely not immediately see in the pioneering days of cloning science.

We could experiment on mice, then? Mice can have hundreds of generations in a human lifetime, a huge population could be created and monitered in order to study potential problems. That way any problems could be ironed out, and we'd know what to look for in any human clones. Any if something escapes us, which could certainly happen... well there's not much we can do about that except to be as careful as possible and be really sure of what we're doing.

Point Two; more related to Point One. This is not to say that we should avoid exploration altogether simply because it is dangerous. Not at all. Just as there are less radical, more viable options to birth control than abortion -- thereby reducing the justification for abortion -- there are less radical, more viable options to the exploration of the human genome and medical science than going straight to cloning. There are certain things which must be done before the risk is acceptable and before our control over the human genome is firm enough that we can truly be responsible with it, which, currently, it and we most assuredly are not. Dante, I agree that we must explore and advance our knowledge of the universe and ourselves, but I disagree with any assertion that we must "do this" or "do that" or that we are compelled to make our discoveries in any specific way. Cloning is possible, and just because we can do a thing it does not necessarilly follow that we must do that thing to know the consequences. The effects of radiation and the atomic bomb were more or less predicted before the first bomb was ignited. Trial-by-error is not absolutely necessary, and I feel that it is just as irresponsible to hastily and recklessly push for the advancement of knowledge as it is to not push for the advancement of knowledge at all.

True enough. I suppose I just find the idea of experimentation more romantic than working everything out on paper first. And I'm not saying that we should just make a clone and see what happens. Not as such, anyway... I'm saying that once our understanding has reached a certain level, or is percieved to have reached that level, then there is no reason why we shouldn't. There may be few practical uses for clones, but how can we be sure that the procedure is possible without carrying it out?

Point Three; I like how Dante said "Ah, almost exactly what I expected. Almost." I can see him now, sitting in his chair, Fed2k on the screen and a knowing look in his eye, for he knows us so well and his brilliant mind is so advanced that he can predict our very responses! Listen, Dante, I agree completely with you that sometimes the stupid things people say on this forum is a turnoff. It is exactly one of the reasons I've stopped posting as regularly as I used to. But if there's one thing I can stand less than idiocy, it's melodrama. I know this really doesn't have anything to do with the issue at hand [cloning], and I apologize.

Oh that's alright. I'm quite aware that I was being abrasive with people. And I can be melodramatic. It's a reaction against... other things. Also, if it's any consolation, I've never been able to predict what you'll say. What surprised me was Edric's opening line. That hurt.

Having said that, Edric's suggestion about the ubermenschen seems... Well actually I don't mind the idea. But then, I wouldn't.

Cloning is a senseless if we were only to make replicas. And human is also pure on the birth, so if you clone a genius you have no insurance its duplicate will be a genius too. Problem is in experimenting.

I'm not sure what you mean with the last sentance, but it's true that genius' won't have genius clones. I think that makes it all the more interesting. Is the genius' brain somehow superior genetically, or is his/her ability due to enviroment? That would be a worthwhile study.

The reason you dont post here often is probably due to the fact that you dont really have anything important to say.

How do you know, if he doesn't post here often?

If you are intimidated to post in PRP due to lack of knowledge thats not my fault.

Assumption.

and Dante needs to stay in Fan Fiction forums as that is perfect for him since he is out of touch with reality.

Not as such, I just find it distasteful. Probably because of you.

If you have no proficiency in any of the PRP topics dont blame me for that. Start educating yourself. Furthermore if i sound abrasive its only because i refuse to allow fools to spread bad science, bad math, or bad moral reasoning. IT has nothing to do with people "having different views"

[Cyborg]

The reason you dont post here often is probably due to the fact that you dont really have anything important to say.  If you are intimidated to post in PRP due to lack of knowledge thats not my fault.  Also i usually comment in science/religion/economic posts... so i will dismiss your silly statement of "every subject known to man".... when Edrico writes about Government structures and politics or TMA writes about movie reviews you dont see me post there very often.  People will post in topics where their proficiency is comfortable.  Cyborg you should keep posting in technical issues forum as you have interesting stuff to say there... and Dante needs to stay in Fan Fiction forums as that is perfect for him since he is out of touch with reality. If you have no proficiency in any of the PRP topics dont blame me for that.  Start educating yourself.  Furthermore if i sound abrasive its only because i refuse to allow fools to spread bad science, bad math , or bad moral reasoning. IT has nothing to do with people "having different views"  ... it has to do with people saying stupid stuff that doesnt make sense.  The topic post is so faulty and pointless that he could have simply typed "1 + 1 = 3"  and i would have written the same response.

No intention to flame here, but are you suggesting that everybode else than the members of your own little 'elite' know-it-all group visit this forum?

It happens to be so that I know a whole lot, but as people have a tendency to completely avoid a topic after to-three posts, it's a waste of time to post here. It seems to me that many people posting here have a hobby of finding ridiculous ways of turning other people's arguments against them (or make people look silly), or just tell them they're wrong.

Why discuss politics, religion and philosophy unless you discuss facts? Err, ok, hehe, religion and facts don't go very well hand in hand in my opinion  ;), but here, you make the assumption that I'm intimidated by the posts here (made by, for instance, you, the only man in the whole universe to always be right in any discussion). That's false.

But I will not heat myself up over such a pity, and I hope you won't either.

I agree with Dante's views in his main post, about moral views on cloning. They're quite without reason. However, the practical problems, which he didn't mention, are impossible to solve right now, and that should be the very reason why we don't clone living being, not that people who don't know anything about it, refer to the bible or other books and say that we can't allow it.

[Wolf]

Dante, I think that no matter what the situation, there will be people who think that we are ready for a certain undertaking, and there will be those who think that we are not ready. I just think that we need to be reasonable and objective in our assessment of this situation -- human cloning -- and be fully aware of the risks thereof. I sincerely doubt that humanity will, at all soon, be cloning people en masse for a personal market, that's absurd. Cloning is more likely to be useful to clone replacement organs for bodies torn asunder by accident, disease, cancer, and whatnot. I don't think we'd ever clone an independent, whole, living human except in the most bizarre and probably criminal of circumstances. In any case, you are correct in saying that we should use other animals for initial experimentation -- which is what we do currently. In these tests, we've found that multiple genetic anamolies do occur in cloned subjects, which usually lead to their premature deaths after substantial discomfort.

And about the melodrama... I admit, I was a little angry. Pay it no mind. I think it's good that after so long bantering with one another we can still surprise each other.

[Caid Ivik]

Why would we need to clone a whole body for just a few organs? This is truly going to some kind of new stratification with castes of "living" and "supportive" humans. That would perhaps lead to experimenting, where guys will try to erase sparks of humanity from the supportive units. I would say, return to Kant! Every human should be made for himself, not for anyone else.

[Wolf]

We don't, Caid, we only need to clone the specific organs we want, not the entire body.

[Caid Ivik]

I liked Casshern too, but such universal cells are scifi yet. We can produce only a whole evolving phoetus and then extract certain stem cells from it, while the remains of phoetus are left for death.

[GUNWOUNDS]

There are stem cell alternatives now....

[Caid Ivik]

In world of such communicative chaos, how can we know that something is really possible?  ;)

[GUNWOUNDS]

In world of such communicative chaos, how can we know that something is really possible?

[Caid Ivik]

But you yourself pointed out just few things, which don't sign a full concept for me. That's also why I try to stay out of the science and watch only for the philosophical aspects. We talk about the information we were able to obtain, if you would share some more with us, we would be only glad. There is no better source of info than a dialogue.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Well, Published studies have shown that (discarded) Placenta and Umbilical cord blood stem cells have the capacity to change into other cell types, which give them the potential to treat debilitating conditions such as spinal cord injury, Parkinson's, diabetes and heart disease as well as cancer.

In regards to heart disease... a patient's own Stem cells can be obtained from bone marrow and data show that mesenchymal cells can be isolated from fatty tissue, which can then be regenerated into cardiomyocytes. Cells were treated with 5-azacytidine to stimulate the growth of myocardial tissue. By three weeks the regenerated myocytes began to beat spontaneously in vitro. Myocyte appearance and function was recorded up to 2 months.

Stem cell alternatives from fatty tissue, bone marrow, discarded placenta, and discarded umbilical cords are being researched and techniques refined everyday...stem cell research using aborted fetus is clearly on its way out as legislation is being drafted as we speak to promote the stem cell alternatives over the "lets kill a fetus" approach.

[Caid Ivik]

That's quite clear.