Israel

[leo]

You see, if I had any decision-making power in Iran and my country was attack by air strikes or land invasion from Israel or US - doesn't matter which, I would first proclaim the injustice to the world and see if I could get any allies, because it's not illegal for Iran to be doing what it is doing - enriching Uranium. And if that doesn't work, I would call for swift strikes against the US and allied forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. Those forces are designed to keep peace against minor groups of insurgents and would be quickly overtaken if taken off guard. And of course, use whatever WMDs I could find - chemical, biological, nuclear missiles that Iran could buy from North Korea, whichever. A large majority of Iraqi military would probably join the invading Iranian forces even though because you know that Shi'ite arabs are the predominant group in the region. Afghanistan would probably be even easier to invade because most forces have been moved from there.

Oh, and of course, a major use of any WMD within the confines of the US homeland would bring the public support for the US-Iran war tumbling to zero.

Damn, I wish I was ruling a country...at least a small one. 

Iran is training, giving missiles and funding Hezbollah. Therefore Iranian missiles fall on our cities, Hezbollah killed our civilians and even hijacked. All this time (quite a long one I must say) Israel never responded against Iran (while we easily can). I think Israel has a "little" right to retaliate. Don't you?

[VigilVirus]

Iran is training, giving missiles and funding Hezbollah. Therefore Iranian missiles fall on our cities, Hezbollah killed our civilians and even hijacked. All this time (quite a long one I must say) Israel never responded against Iran (while we easily can). I think Israel has a "little" right to retaliate. Don't you?

In order to agree with your sentiment I would also have to agree with the idea that Israel should exist in the first place, which I don't.

Ordos45: If US uses nuclear weapons it will be brought down by the world.

[leo]

In order to agree with your sentiment I would also have to agree with the idea that Israel should exist in the first place, which I don't.

Ordos45: If US uses nuclear weapons it will be brought down by the world.

Well Israel does exist. So now it

[VigilVirus]

Well Israel does exist. So now it

[Caid Ivik]

There always may exist both Israel and a separate state of Filistines. To take it historically, they were invaders, not Israel...

[Anathema]

Historicly it was the Israelites who drove off the Kanaites first (and not very gently), and next to be expelled by the Romans.

I agree with the often heard argument that each nation should deserve a patch of land to call their own, but surely they could have picked a more subtle location then amongst several countries who's people they're on less then friendly terms with? Oh, but they just had to have that piece of land because it belonged to them like what, 2000 years ago? What a bullshit argument. Interesting to note is that back then, they also drove off the local inhabitants in order to live there.

[TMA_1]

the jews have rightful ownership of israel. They took control of the land during the war against the city-states of the cannanites, and have always come back to it even when they were dispatched from the land. Every single time they have come back to their homeland, and everytime outside forces try to uproot them. I am just saying that it will never be taken away, too much blood, sweat, and tears have gone into keeping it a sovergn jewish state.

Another thing that erks me is the fact that the palistinians are not the underdogs, dispite what people think. The palistinians have never really agreed to israels right to exist, they have always been the aggressors, there have been many peace talks and it is always the jewish leadership that bends over backwords for the palistinians, and sheesh if that isnt enough there is more! People seem to forget that around 1948, there was a plan set in motion so that the jewish people would have apart of palistine, and the palistinians would have a portion as well, with the U.N. governing and protecting jerusalem. Guess who screwed that one up? None other than the Palistinians.  Not all palistinians are evil, and I am not trying to infer that. ALl of you must admit though that a large portion of palistinians do wish for the destruction of israel, and people dont seem to see that.

Not only this, but a majority of the "palistinian" people are actually jordanian! Many do not realize this, and that is another thing that just throws a wrench into the argument that the palistinians have the same rights to israeli soil. And another thing that a lot of folks dont hear about is the fact that many of the largest jewish cities have always had a jewish majority, even through the past two centuries. For example, during the many crusades, a majority of people living in Jerusalem were jews, about 65% to be exact.

I guess there are a lot of misconceptions about this subject htat bothers me, and the fact that the only arguments I get in return is "how would you feel if your land was taken from you?"  Sorry for sounding mean, and I do not speak for anybody else, but it is not the palistinians land! So I do not feel for the palistinian authorities.

sorry for the rambling, just this is a touchy subject for me. I dont know if what I said was clear, as it was as I said, a rambling.lol

also sorry if I aided in letting this convo go off track.

[VigilVirus]

This isn't about who controlled it first. It's about who were the people living within that space right before decolonization. And the answer to that would be the palestinians, I don't care whether they are jordanians or not. The jews that live in Israel have very little to none relations to the jews that supposedly lived their several millenia ago.

I don't remember any other races/religions getting back their rightful land, I believe jews are the only ones. Now, what truly makes them so special, so deserving? Holocaust? Pfft, I took no part in it and neither did the palestinians. Personally, I couldn't care less about it. I do not see why other people have to suffer to make up for the suffering of others.

And TMA-1, you did mention that it belonged to the cannanites...so, what exactly makes it rightful jewish land in the first place?

As for wishing the destruction of Israel, it's not just the palestinians who do. It's the majority of the people in the Middle east and a large portion of the rest of the world's population. I believe just from that alone you can see that maybe Israel wasn't such a great idea. Scrap it, I say.

[leo]

Think about it from the palestinian point of view for example (I know you don't want to, but try) and the people who support/agree with palestinian radicals. They see Israelis as invaders or trespassers. Invading and trespassing civilians aren't innocent, they have the right to be shot. It's all about your point of view and I see both. I don't see the murders by palestinians as justifiable, but neither do I see the murders by the Israeli army as justifiable. The issue here is that Israeli army has the technology behind it and therefore can do much more damage and should be judged more harshly than a bunch of fanatics with AK-47s and bombs strapped to their chests.

Man, I'd like to discuss about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict but I'm afraid it has nothing to do with this thread or with my previous post. We were speaking about a country like Iran that kills Israeli citizens (not soldiers) for years while Israel isn't doing anything because of international pressure. Don't go off topic.

[leo]

This isn't about who controlled it first. It's about who were the people living within that space right before decolonization. And the answer to that would be the palestinians, I don't care whether they are jordanians or not. The jews that live in Israel have very little to none relations to the jews that supposedly lived their several millenia ago.

I don't remember any other races/religions getting back their rightful land, I believe jews are the only ones. Now, what truly makes them so special, so deserving? Holocaust? Pfft, I took no part in it and neither did the palestinians. Personally, I couldn't care less about it. I do not see why other people have to suffer to make up for the suffering of others.

And TMA-1, you did mention that it belonged to the cannanites...so, what exactly makes it rightful jewish land in the first place?

As for wishing the destruction of Israel, it's not just the palestinians who do. It's the majority of the people in the Middle east and a large portion of the rest of the world's population. I believe just from that alone you can see that maybe Israel wasn't such a great idea. Scrap it, I say.

Let's forget History? The entire geopolitical situation today is a direct cause of thousands of years. But ok let's forget about it for a moment. The Palestinians never owned or controlled this land, just lived in here, so after the big empires leave this place they have a right to have their homeland here. I 100% agree with you. The UN decided to give most of the land to them and a very small 1 to the Jews. If an Arab lives on an Israeli soil he doesn't has to leave. WE DID AGREE, THEY DIDN'T. Tell me what can be more innocent than that? You told me you look it from both sides while I

[Caid Ivik]

Historicly it was the Israelites who drove off the Kanaites first (and not very gently), and next to be expelled by the Romans.

I agree with the often heard argument that each nation should deserve a patch of land to call their own, but surely they could have picked a more subtle location then amongst several countries who's people they're on less then friendly terms with? Oh, but they just had to have that piece of land because it belonged to them like what, 2000 years ago? What a bullshit argument. Interesting to note is that back then, they also drove off the local inhabitants in order to live there.

Kanaanites were semitic tribes, same as Israel. Just Israel was formed from Chabiru nomads, while pre-Abraham Kanaanites lived as peasants. By Bible, Abraham claimed unsettled lands, so we can say these Kanaanites were not as numerous. This was cca 1800 years BC. Filistines, originally a non-semitic "marine nation", as mentioned by ancient historians, invaded Kanaan from Cyprus in the late bronze age, dh 1200-1000 BC. National difference between semitic Kanaanites and Filistines could be seen on more scales. While pagan Kanaanites worshipped El, Baal and Astaroth, monodualistic forces of heavens, ancestors of Arafat had Dagon, god of fertility, more of indoeuropean, pantheistic style.

Ok, let's call this a "bullshit argument", as by same way there may come ancient Kanaan tribes like Moabites or Amons and spread the war on both Filistines and Jews. Legislatively, Palestine was de facto annexed in terms of international law by British Empire, while Arabs (what is a fourth side here, coming in 7th century) were joyfully selling their lands to numerous and rich jewish colonists. These colonists had a full support of british government, which decided to create an independent state here, while giving sovereign power not to Arab clergy (like in autonomous Palestine under british crown was ruled), but to democratically elected government. And as country was now mostly jewish, it is logical that Jews were elected. Filistines were out of this conflict, as their part of Palestine - Cisjordany and Gaza - were a part of Jordan Kingdom, resp.Egypt. However, both Jordan and Egypt were the ones, who started the war against the existence of Israel in its primary form (as a democratic non-muslim state) already in 1948.

Their losses and demagogy led to massive emmigration of Arabs from Israel, thus leading to own disintegration and jewish supremacy inside Israel. Arabs sold their land, first to Turks, then to Brits and at last to Jews. Few fanatics, supported by refugees, which they don't want to integrate, because they would not be useful for their military plans, have no right to turn this state of things.

[Caid Ivik]

I still don

[VigilVirus]

You were the one who started talking about Israel having a right to strike back because its civilians were being killed, therefore you have no one but yourself to blame for this tangent. You seemed to have made a rhetorical question about their right to murder and I answered no nevertheless.

And yes, you are right, the jews agreed to move back to their "homeland" and assume most of the political power there, ruling the indigenous arabs. But the arabs didn't agree to be ruled and have their culture intermixed with large quantities of jewish settlers. I can't say I blame them that much. I don't believe that Islam in the Middle East is generally not the kind of religion or culture that calls for being ruled by individuals of different beliefs. Think of pan-germanism before WWII.

Maybe the jews got the land legally through connections and control over UN decisions, but it wasn't worth it for anyone but them. It was one of the most self-centered and marasmic decisions in history. 

[leo]

You were the one who started talking about Israel having a right to strike back because its civilians were being killed, therefore you have no one but yourself to blame for this tangent. You seemed to have made a rhetorical question about their right to murder and I answered no nevertheless.

You see, if I had any decision-making power in Iran and my country was attack by air strikes or land invasion from Israel or US - doesn't matter which, I would first proclaim the injustice to the world and see if I could get any allies, because it's not illegal for Iran to be doing what it is doing - enriching Uranium. And if that doesn't work, I would call for swift strikes against the US and allied forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. Those forces are designed to keep peace against minor groups of insurgents and would be quickly overtaken if taken off guard. And of course, use whatever WMDs I could find - chemical, biological, nuclear missiles that Iran could buy from North Korea, whichever. A large majority of Iraqi military would probably join the invading Iranian forces even though because you know that Shi'ite arabs are the predominant group in the region. Afghanistan would probably be even easier to invade because most forces have been moved from there.

Oh, and of course, a major use of any WMD within the confines of the US homeland would bring the public support for the US-Iran war tumbling to zero.

Damn, I wish I was ruling a country...at least a small one.

[Caid Ivik]

You were the one who started talking about Israel having a right to strike back because its civilians were being killed, therefore you have no one but yourself to blame for this tangent. You seemed to have made a rhetorical question about their right to murder and I answered no nevertheless.

And yes, you are right, the jews agreed to move back to their "homeland" and assume most of the political power there, ruling the indigenous arabs. But the arabs didn't agree to be ruled and have their culture intermixed with large quantities of jewish settlers. I can't say I blame them that much. I don't believe that Islam in the Middle East is generally not the kind of religion or culture that calls for being ruled by individuals of different beliefs. Think of pan-germanism before WWII.

Maybe the jews got the land legally through connections and control over UN decisions, but it wasn't worth it for anyone but them. It was one of the most self-centered and marasmic decisions in history. 

This is a nonsense. Jews lived in Palestine far before the war, largest immigration wave was from Russia already in 19th century. Britain gave them asylum on their soil (dh Palestine) legislatively, and Arabs did so economically. Creation of the state of Israel was a logical effect.

[TMA_1]

Guys, I told you that I am just speaking for myself, and that I was sorry for helping in moving this debate off topic, so I did give fair warning.lol

devil's advocate, did you really say "scrap it"? Are you saying that the jewish state was a mistake, and that it shouldnt exist? if so, then we are probably so diametrically opposed, that its scary.lol

Listen man, the "Palistinians", have never been a specific people. They have not created their own culture, and indeed there have only been a few settlements where a specific group of arabs who call themselves palistinians have lived in israel for any long period of time. ALmost all palistinians come from egypt or jordan, and are not really "natives" to that land. Not only this, but every time there has been a compremise made where there would be a seperate palistinian state, the palistinians have always wanted more. There have been more than a few occasions where there have been talks to the point where the jewish people tried to help in creating a seperate palistinian state, but the palistinians will never agree to it. WHy? because the palistinians want all of palistine, and not just a state within it. They odnt want to "Share", they want to have all of israel! Every time there are peace talks, the palistinians always ask for absurd things that would mean the crippling of the destruction of a jewish state. They ask for things that the israeli state cant give without compremising their national security. And Not only this, but the international community isnt even on the side of israel! the only nation that is really fully for the side of israel is America, and even then america is losing patience with the whole situation. The palistinian authorities are just too hostile to the jewish state, and peace will never be achieved until the palistinians can accept that israel will always exist. People just dont seem to realize that the Palistinians do not want just apart of israel, but all of it, and they wont be satisfied till they have all of it.

The real killer is the fact that israel has always been on the defence during every war they have fought. Even in 81 when they destroyed Iraq's attempts at making a nuclear power plant. Every single war, the nations around israel have tried to destroy it, and every time israel comes out victorious, and just when israel is winning, guess who comes in to stop the war? the U.N. Every time that the war is being won, the U.N. comes in to stop the fighting. Notice though that every time, EVERY time a war is started, the U.N. only comes in to stop the war right when israel is winning, never do they come though during the outset of war, when it looks like israel is at it's worse.

Israel does not have many friends, but they have many enemies, and people for some reason have this resounding anger towards a jewish state, its just really sad.

Again I am just saying that these are my own opinions and I am not speaking for anybody else. I wont post anything more about this as I dont want to take this too off topic, but if any of you want to talk about it online, please IM me, it would be a really cool debate to have via chat. :)

[VigilVirus]

I'm aware that jews lived in Palestine even before the war, but the point was, they didn't have their own state - they were immigrants to a colony that was indigenously arab. When the british freed palestine, the control of it should have passed on to the arab government and the jews within it should have either been ruled by the arabs or returned to Europe/US. To me, it doesn't make any sense that Britain would legislate the power to a separate jewish state, when the jews were just visiting immigrants in Palestenian colony.

As for whether palestinians are their own culture or not...does it really matter? So what if they came from Egypt or Jordan...in the beginning we all came from Africa. That's not really a point that changes anything. And yes, I'm aware that historically palestinians did not agree to divide Palestine, that they wanted all of it, but I understand that as well. They wanted to have all of their land - you can call it whichever, greed or pride.

But yes, we should get back on topic.

I don't believe that Iran will yield to any talks of dismantling its nuclear program. In fact, under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation treaty there's a specific clause that says that the treaty shall never be used to prohibit the peaceful development of nuclear powerplants and of harnessing nuclear power for civilian purposes. This is what the European community is trying to achieve with Iran. Even if Iran may be doing something illegal, why have we forgotten that you have to have evidence before you can blame? And I mean true evidence, not fake WMD evidence.

[Caid Ivik]

Problem is, that the colony was british. Where the Arabs made their right to claim the land for themselves? In 7th century, when they conquered it from Byzantium? I would say another question: is there any Arab anyway? This is war of few specifical muslims, let's call them wahidists by the one who started this crap, and here are no borders, either physical or national. Here are only muslims and enemies. Israel is on the way to clean this sect, Iran should be too.

[TMA_1]

Advocate, in a way I agree that america and the western nations in general have no right to tell any sovergn nation what and waht not to do. No other nation or group of nations has any more right than any other, unlessthere is a hostile attack on an ally of a friendly nation.

But the idea that arabs are indiginous to palistine is kinda generalistic, because the jewish people have been indiginous peoples of palistine in a huge minority for a long time, and havebeen the inhabitents of israel for much longer. Why this doesnt count to the debate is mystifying to me.

Advocate, why are you against the jewish state? why do you believe it has no right to exist? from the ancient past of the founding strife over the holy land, to the core founding zionist ideas of theodore herzl, and even to the present, it seems apparent that the jewish state does deserve at least some merit and respect. Why are you so against it? This isnt an attack, I just dont see the rationality in your debate.

Not only this, but why do you single israel out when thre are other nations that are founded on previous inhabitents? When Israel has more right to their land than most other peoples.

Please tlel me why you feel so strongly about this. Like explain the reasoning behind it and tell me why your opinion is right. I honestly will listen to what you have to say, and wont just retort for argument's sake. I promise you that.

[VigilVirus]

I've had many conversations about Israel in the past, with my friend who is fairly zionist and would sacrifice his life to defend Israel. But even he doesn't argue against how incorrect Israel is in its methods. My dislike of Israel spawns of Israel's policies. Israel is destabilizing the region and uses terror against the terrorists. If Israel could co-exist peacefully with its neighbors, I'd have no problem with it. Israel is an artificial hotspot the removal of which would solve a lot of issues in the Middle East. 

[Caid Ivik]

Terror against terrorists? I nearly thought that Hamas was fearless...

[VigilVirus]

Obviously it's not terrorism against Hamas...it's terrorism against the palestinian population. For every suicide bomber Hamas utilizes to kill a busful of Israelis, Israeli military bomb and shoot innocent mothers and children.

[Wolf]

Not that Hamas targets Israeli soldiers, or anything... I mean, you say the Israelis kill Palestinian mothers, but I know that this is after Palestinians kill Isareli mothers. Neither side is in the right. Perhaps that is their only common ground right now.

[Caid Ivik]

Obviously it's not terrorism against Hamas...it's terrorism against the palestinian population. For every suicide bomber Hamas utilizes to kill a busful of Israelis, Israeli military bomb and shoot innocent mothers and children.

There are jewish terrorists, surely, but military of Israel is their enemy as well. Altough media don't show them as often.

[leo]

There are jewish terrorists, surely, but military of Israel is their enemy as well. Altough media don't show them as often.

Exactly, they even threat to kill our P.M and army chief.