Theocracy Party Inside !

[Caid Ivik]

That's a democracy in the best sense of the word, it leaves to people all religious liberties. State works there like a protector of culture, and that's why it is created. You say "care for well-being of citizens". I want to see them how they can define it without an idea of what this "well-being" is. If I would be prohibited to go to school with a schabesdekel or a necklace with cross, then I can't say it would do me "well".

[Edric O]

A protestant theocracy would NOT have a clerical heirarchy deriving power from clerical status... that would be Catholics and their POPE.

Protestants would run the government without any clerical hierarchy.

You don't seem to understand. The government is a hierarchy, so your Protestant leaders would have to place themselves in a hierarchal power structure in order to run the government. Yes, it would be a governing hierarchy, not a clerical hierarchy - but since the clergy IS the government, what difference does it make?

Besides, you still haven't explained how you plan to prevent corruption and abuse of power. Simply having Protestants in charge isn't enough. Are you suggesting that Protestants are somehow immune to temptation?

[GUNWOUNDS]

How does that have anything to do with a country's system of government? The government is an organization that takes decisions (the legislative branch), implements those decisions (the executive branch) and punishes those who do not respect its decisions (the judiciary branch).

"the government is a organization that takes decisions (the legislative branch)"

What about when those decisions are controversial and have to do with religious topics?

IN regards to Abortion, Gay marriage, Prayer in schools, religious symbols

[GUNWOUNDS]

Besides, you still haven't explained how you plan to prevent corruption and abuse of power. Simply having Protestants in charge isn't enough. Are you suggesting that Protestants are somehow immune to temptation?

Have them voted out by the people just as the preacher from the church i talked about earlier lost his job due to making bad decisions.  We have such a thing now called impeachment.

From www.dictionary.com

Theocracy Definition: A government subject to religious authority.

Democracy Definition:

[Edric O]

That's a democracy in the best sense of the word, it leaves to people all religious liberties.

Yeah, just as long as they have the same religion as the government. ::)

State works there like a protector of culture, and that's why it is created. You say "care for well-being of citizens". I want to see them how they can define it without an idea of what this "well-being" is. If I would be prohibited to go to school with a schabesdekel or a necklace with cross, then I can't say it would do me "well".

"Well-being" is just another word for "happiness". As for how to define happiness, that's easy: Just ask the people what makes them happy, and do it. This is the principle behind any democracy, after all. The people are asked to vote for the leaders and policies most likely to make them happy.

But now I'd like to see you define your fuzzy concept of "culture" that the government is supposed to be protecting. Who gets to decide what is or isn't "culture"?

"the government is a organization that takes decisions (the legislative branch)"

What about when those decisions are controversial and have to do with religious topics?

IN regards to Abortion, Gay marriage, Prayer in schools, religious symbols and many other controversial religious categories of legislation. Thats what.

If the two sides on those issues are irreconcilable, hold a referendum. Ask the people themselves what they want.

Of course, an even better solution is to find a deal that satisfies everyone - for example, allow prayer in some schools, and let parents decide whether to take their children to those.

88% of georgians want gay marriage to be illegal.  What is any difference between that and a Authoritative/Moral Democracy?

An Authoritarian/Moralistic Democracy is when the government takes religious or moral decisions without asking the people about it.

Have them voted out by the people just as the preacher from the church i talked about earlier lost his job due to making bad decisions.

Then, like I said, that's a democracy (not a theocracy).

From www.dictionary.com

Theocracy Definition: A government subject to religious authority.

Democracy Definition: Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives. Majority Rule.

From what i see here i dont see why you cannot have a Democratic Theocracy

Basically a government with religious authority voted into office by the majority of the people.

They just give a very broad definition of "theocracy". Normally, the word "theocracy" is used with a much more narrow meaning - in reference to governments that are entirely run by the clergy.

[GUNWOUNDS]

An Authoritarian/Moralistic Democracy is when the government takes religious or moral decisions without asking the people about it.

That doesnt sound right.

[Edric O]

That doesnt sound right.  It contradicts the word "democracy"  where majority rule... if majority rule then the people are obviously consulted and given a voice.

Yes, they are: they vote to elect the leaders (hence "democracy") and the leaders have sweeping powers to create moralistic legislation (hence "moralistic" or "authoritarian").

[GUNWOUNDS]

They just give a very broad definition of "theocracy". Normally, the word "theocracy" is used with a much more narrow meaning - in reference to governments that are entirely run by the clergy.

Well a very broad definition/concept of theocracy is what i am looking for ... since obviously i am not interested in fundamentalistic definitions as i am not interested in cultist or fundamentalist views/concepts

[Edric O]

Well a very broad definition/concept of theocracy is what i am looking for ... since obviously i am not interested in fundamentalistic definitions as i am not interested in cultist or fundamentalist views/concepts

You do of course realize that the word "theocracy" has a highly negative connotation...?

[GUNWOUNDS]

Yes, they are: they vote to elect the leaders (hence "democracy") and the leaders have sweeping powers to create moralistic legislation (hence "moralistic" or "authoritarian").

So long as the legislation is in line with what the majority wants... then they are not imposing legislation without the people's consent.

[Caid Ivik]

Have you thought about a possibility, that there might be a so good God, that would care for the people in all ways? I'm not concrete, but take this as a possibility. Communism is to be universal, so you must be exact in this.

Yeah, just as long as they have the same religion as the government. ::)

"Well-being" is just another word for "happiness". As for how to define happiness, that's easy: Just ask the people what makes them happy, and do it. This is the principle behind any democracy, after all. The people are asked to vote for the leaders and policies most likely to make them happy. But now I'd like to see you define your fuzzy concept of "culture" that the government is supposed to be protecting. Who gets to decide what is or isn't "culture"?

If the two sides on those issues are irreconcilable, hold a referendum. Ask the people themselves what they want.

Again you are radicalizing. But whatever. Culture is the structure of human (or any rational) thinking, work and relations. This includes certain norms, standards and their application: laws, traditions, religion. Certain values of these constants should be reflected in constitution - if they aren't, state shortly falls. This can't be democratically changed, as it reflects the behavior, the spirit of the nation itself. You can change it officially, but then you must enforce the police, for it is contradicting with them. If there is no good constitution - and if we are to talk about theocracy, you can be sure that Israelites were led by Tora without a king for three centuries - then you can't simply "ask the people", for it is hard to understand own nature, you know. And sometimes we don't want to look at the mirror as well.

[GUNWOUNDS]

You do of course realize that the word "theocracy" has a highly negative connotation...?

Only if it implies someone claiming to be a God who isnt.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Israelites were led by Tora without a king for three centuries - then you can't simply "ask the people", for it is hard to understand own nature, you know. And sometimes we don't want to look at the mirror as well.

That was back when people were uneducated and only high priests could read.

[Edric O]

So long as the legislation is in line with what the majority wants... then they are not imposing legislation without the people's consent.

Of course they aren't. I never said otherwise.

Are you telling me that if a Moral Democracy elected Christian officals and then those christian officials used their "sweeping powers" to create satanic legislation that the people would be helpless to stop them?  ::)  Hardly.... they would be kicked out of office and new officials would be elected.

Yes, precisely. That's what makes it a democracy. Not "moral", mind you (because not everyone will agree with its morals), but moralistic (because it legislates moral issues rather than leaving the people alone to make their own decisions as long as they don't harm anyone else).

[nemafakei]

Ok, looks like we have definitions problems!

"Theocracy Definition: A government subject to religious authority."

Yep, that's pretty good as a concise and general definition. Literally it means rule by god.

"Democracy Definition:

[GUNWOUNDS]

Of course they aren't. I never said otherwise.

Yes, precisely. That's what makes it a democracy. Not "moral", mind you (because not everyone will agree with its morals), but moralistic (because it legislates moral issues rather than leaving the people alone to make their own decisions as long as they don't harm anyone else).

yes but thats the whole point of moral decisions is that they more likely than not refer to harming others and yourself.

our government already does this.... there is perjury (you cant lie).... you get arrested for trying to commit suicide...... infanticide is illegal.... abortion use to be illegal... is this not moralistic?

Can we not say that we already live in a moralistic Democracy in the US?

[Edric O]

yes but thats the whole point of moral decisions is that they more likely than not refer to harming others and yourself.

I was specifically talking about things that don't harm anyone. Things like gay marriage, for example.

our government already does this.... there is perjury (you cant lie)...

Because a lie under oath can and does harm someone.

you get arrested for trying to commint suicide......

Well... that's just stupid.

infanticide is illegal....

Because it means killing another human being - a child, to be more exact.

abortion use to be illegal... is this not moralistic?

Not really. The main argument against abortion is that it is murder - in other words, that it harms another human being.

[GUNWOUNDS]

"Theocracy Definition: A government subject to religious authority."

Yep, that's pretty good as a concise and general definition. Literally it means rule by god.

Yes but since God isnt physically here on earth wielding power.... its a bit different.

[nemafakei]

"Can we not say that we already live in a moralistic Democracy in the US?"

Well, I think there's an element of it in the examples you give. But Edric is talking about something a little more significant and interventionist than what are relatively common social laws

"you get arrested for trying to commint suicide......"

Hell, we got rid of that in 1961. Hey, do you still have the law we once had where it was punishable by death?

"So until Christ actually comes.... the religion will have to be subject to the people's interpretation until Christ comes here in person and physically proclaims what he wants.  Thats just simple deduction."

Yeah, I was just giving the etymological breakdown. But yes, it comes to mean the power is in the hands of the god's representatives.

"Until Christ comes back personally the democratic theocracy will be most responsible to the people"

Ok... give an example of how you would do it (what is voted for, what is controlled by the church, etc) and let's see if the definition holds well.

[GUNWOUNDS]

"Can we not say that we already live in a moralistic Democracy in the US?"

Well, I think there's an element of it in the examples you give. But Edric is talking about something a little more significant and interventionist than what are relatively common social laws

"you get arrested for trying to commint suicide......"

Hell, we got rid of that in 1961. Hey, do you still have the law we once had where it was punishable by death?

"So until Christ actually comes.... the religion will have to be subject to the people's interpretation until Christ comes here in person and physically proclaims what he wants.

[GUNWOUNDS]

I was specifically talking about things that don't harm anyone. Things like gay marriage, for example.

Because a lie under oath can and does harm someone.

Well... that's just stupid.

Because it means killing another human being - a child, to be more exact.

Not really. The main argument against abortion is that it is murder - in other words, that it harms another human being.

Ok fair enough the things i listed do hurt others... but in my paragraph above i listed things that dont hurt others... like prostitution, recreational drugs, strip clubs, suicide, etc, etc.

And getting arrested for suicide isnt stupid.  Someone who is suicidal should be restrained and counseled.  Not left up on the ledge of a building.

[Anathema]

Theo = god (not necessarily the Christian/Judeo one)

cracy = rule

Therefore, theocracy is the rule of god(s). The most literal examples I know are:

a) ancient Israel before the kings, when it was still governed directly by the Lord

b) Egypt, where the pharaos were thought to be gods.

A practical definition that covers all seems pretty hard to find, as there are rulers wich justify their rule with religion (either because the ruler is god, or a representative of him), there are systems that symply aspire to operate the way god(s) want them too (Abraham Lincoln?), systems in wich there is a secular government but wich is subordinate to the clergy, etc.

[nemafakei]

Oh, yes, there are certainly some issues on which government in the US takes a moralistic role. I'm just saying that you don't have to restrict yourself to only two options - moralistic and non-moralistic - in your classification. You would say that US legislation is moralistic to a certain extent.

"Not left up on the ledge of a building."

Until they've made the actual attempt, surely you can't arrest them?

[GUNWOUNDS]

"Not left up on the ledge of a building."

Until they've made the actual attempt, surely you can't arrest them?

Well if you are on the ledge and you are threatening to jump.... that itself is enough. 

[Caid Ivik]

That was back when people were uneducated and only high priests could read.  Nowadays the common man can read scripture.  So yes the common people can be consulted as of 2005.  Ok well maybe not everyone... there are still some boneheads out there who misinterpret scriptures due to laziness , apathy, whatever.  But anyone who has taken the time to actually sit down and understand the true hebrew and greek translations will truly understand what is being said.  And that being said there are alot of people who understand what their holy books say and so now a Democratic theocracy, moralistic democracy, WHATEVER,  doesnt have to be led by "high priests" without consultation of the people.  Also its not uncommon for some people to disagree with their pastor's interpretation of things.  So this concept of the sheep blindly following the shepherd is truly outdated.

Many people can read, but not all understand it. Then people followed priests and prophets, now we follow lawyers with same respect. However main thing is that situation of ancient tribes of Israel is different with our, and same we can say about ie Iran. Perhaps in USA or Slovakia it may seem "outdated", but not everywhere.