Bible verses

[Edric O]

I also want to answer one of Gunwounds's older questions:

this makes alot of sense.

but where do you draw the line?  I mean my parents just bought a new Ford Expedition .... however they dont own a yacht....

so are they "bad" christians for owning an expensive car  when they could have bought a Yugo instead??

[...]

what is modest living?  that is purely speculative and opinion....

[...]

i mean its easy to view millionaires and billionaires as being "bad"  but when we get down to the people who make 20k-200k per year.... when do you cross the line from being a  good christian to a "rich bad" christian? ...

.....it seems to me you are putting the "upper middle class" in quite an awkard place... as they are not exactly poor and not exactly rich...so how should they spend their money?

I draw the line at the median level of wealth. In other words, at the level of wealth everyone would have if all wealth was distributed evenly. As I said before, the richest 10% of people are above this level, while the remaining 90% are below it.

The upper middle class is most likely in the bottom 90%... although I can't be sure. I suppose that depends on how you define "upper middle class". I'll have to go check some income statistics.

In any case, what makes you a good Christian is helping your fellow man whenever you have the opportunity. If you're rich, then you can still be a good Christian by giving money to the poor instead of buying yourself a yacht, for example.

[Edric O]

You talk like "capitalism" was some kind of institution or at least an ideology. To be economically active doesn't counter any law of God, what you were trying to show by misinterprating Bible. I don't see any other form of "active support for capitalism" than market itself. At least don't try to look hypocritical, when your first sentence is going against the last...

"Active support for capitalism" means voting for right-wing capitalist parties, opposing left-wing socialist or communist parties, taking the side of capitalism in political discussions and trying to convince other people that God somehow endorses capitalism.

In other words, what the American Religious Right does.

[Caid Ivik]

You can use "insert quote", you don't have to make double posts...

Don't you think that "give to caesar, what caesar's and to God what His is..." has some meaning? When I honor freedom and want to give people a right to be moral (dh to be good by their choice, by their own initiative), why should I vote for forced redistribution? God doesn't endorse any politics, maybe only His own throne over us. What does ARR I have no idea, but I'm sure it's no crusade against the red ones.

[Edric O]

Now I'm short on time (again), but before I go, I want to answer a question that was asked earlier on the first page of this topic: "If Christianity supports socialism and/or communism, why are so many present-day Christian evangelists rabidly pro-capitalist?"

The answer is simple: Because the Church has been corrupted by power. In the final days of the Roman Empire, the last Emperors saw that they could not fight Christianity any more. So instead of persecuting Christians, they made a devil's bargain with them: Christianity would be made the official state religion of Rome if the Christians recognized the Emperor as God's emissary on Earth.

Thus the union between Church and State was born. The Church bowed before emperors, kings and aristocrats, and in return Church leaders were showered with riches and made aristocrats themselves. Since they were themselves among the rich and powerful, the Church leaders naturally began to defend the interests of the rich and powerful, no matter the fact that it went against their own religion.

The greed, immorality and corruption of the Church had become so blatantly obvious by the 16th century that it triggered the Reformation. But unfortunately, the Reformation only met with limited success. The old Catholic and Orthodox Churches revised their ways somewhat, but still continued to bow to the rich and powerful. The Protestants, although very egalitarian at first, soon feel to the same corruption as the Catholic Church before them.

...and that is why today we Christians continue to have religious leaders who cater to the interests of the rich and powerful while perverting Christianity to serve their goals. It all started 1600 years ago in Rome.

[Caid Ivik]

You talk about evangelists, not catholics. But what are they? Council of Trident made a very successful purification of Church, while it had to sacrifice all political power. What caused, in fact, the 30-year war. Protestant churches felt a victory over Rome after Trident, so they remained in their heretical thoughts. However, they abolished all positive changes, and made own teachings even worse, as we can see Geneve under Calvin's rule, first totalitarian state since Sparta. Then came Hobbes with his philosophy "why shouldn't we control these small, powerless churches for power purposes?" and union you are talking about, was reborn. However, we don't talk about catholic Church now anymore.

[Anathema]

Christianity didn't become the state religion in a night. Constantine first legalised other religions with the Milan tolerance edict of 313 (I think that's the correct date, not sure though). It was emperor Theodosius who made christianity the state religion several decades later, in 387 or something like that, when many Romans had already converted to christianity.

You're right though, in Rome and Constantinople religion became almost a branch of government.

[Anathema]

What do you guys think about the verses in wich God says he'll completely eradicate certain nations from the Earth? Can't name any specific verses right now, but they're abundant in the Old Testament.

[TagDaze]

Do you mean the destruction of human governments (Nebukadnezar's dream) or how God killed nations because they were living in the promised land?

[Caid Ivik]

It was a one-timed event, Anathema. In fact, Jews haven't followed the order correctly and they are harvesting problems of it until presence... Tough it sounds brutal, of course.

[TMA_1]

I think even that is a bit too much edric.

for example, gunwounds' father makes as he said around 100 thousand a year. Now my family doesnt make anywhere near that much but there is usually a couple dollars left over for us to have burgers every once in awhile or to rent movies. my mom and dad do give about 20 bucks to a pastor we know well who needs the money. Honestly though if you can believe it, that is about all we can give.lol

It isnt the amount of money you give, that is not the point. It is about WHAT you give, like in the bible with the widows mite.

So if gunwounds' dad makes about a hundred thousand than he could probably get by with giving a little more than a few dollars. Even my family fails in this though because we like to have a little fun with our money, but if we wanted to follow the Word in exactness, then we would give all that we dont need.

Now gunwounds, I am not attacking at all! because my family does the same, but I highly doubt that your family gives all it doesnt need. Otherwise your dad wouldnt have gotten that car, because unless your dad has a profession where he needs a car like that, then a lot of that is money that wasent needed. Your dad needs a basic car to get from point A to point B and wont break down. Your dad got a car that is a bit nicer than that. Not only that but by the way you explain things, it just seems that it isnt the case that your family gives all it doesnt need. If that was the case than your family would live in a lot more simplicity, which it seems to me that they dont.

Thats not an attack, as if I was your dad I would almost definitely do the same thing. I guess I am happy for that because it is like that old saying. "If you dont want to get into trouble, then dont even get yourself into a situation where you could in the first place."

That goes with money too.

[GUNWOUNDS]

oh i didnt feel attacked... i agree with you... i just wanted to know where you draw the line and you made that a bit more clear.