The Israeli-Palestinian conflict: a poll

[Digital Guerrilla]

You could could quite simply put it that their are major obstacles in the entire conflict that make it confusing. If truth be known Israel will not allow Palestine to become a state because most consider it to be a threat to their security. That is not saying they do not have a right to feel this way but that fact alone can hamper any progress Palestine might wish make to become a state. The water sitution is important because most of the water comes from the West Bank if I am correct (which Israel occupied in 1967). That is important in the border claims that Israel has made to include its security, its settlements, its control of Jerusalem. The main ponit that hurts the Palestinians from being heard is that as long as militants continue their regin of terror Israel will continue to wipe out the Palestinian infrastructure. What of the former agreements between Israel and the Palestinians which would have given the Palestinian Authority varying degrees of control over the Gaza Strip and the West Bank? These so-called agreements of Palestinian statehood were left to "final status" negotiations but these have never begun.

[leo]

You could could quite simply put it that their are major obstacles in the entire conflict that make it confusing. If truth be known Israel will not allow Palestine to become a state because most consider it to be a threat to their security. That is not saying they do not have a right to feel this way but that fact alone can hamper any progress Palestine might wish make to become a state. The water sitution is important because most of the water comes from the West Bank if I am correct (which Israel occupied in 1967). That is important in the border claims that Israel has made to include its security, its settlements, its control of Jerusalem. The main ponit that hurts the Palestinians from being heard is that as long as militants continue their regin of terror Israel will continue to wipe out the Palestinian infrastructure. What of the former agreements between Israel and the Palestinians which would have given the Palestinian Authority varying degrees of control over the Gaza Strip and the West Bank? These so-called agreements of Palestinian statehood were left to "final status" negotiations but these have never begun.

Nope, actually there is almost no water there. The water they receive is given by us for them. Most of the Israeli water is in the Kineret lake which is located in northern Israel and in other underground water sources which most of them located near the shore. Recently, Israel has signed an agreement with turkey to import water from them and we are building (and already have 1) factories that will purify water from the sea.

[Digital Guerrilla]

You speak of the arms for water deal with Turkey. In the deal Israel will ship something like 50 million cubic metres of water a year for 20 years from the river Manavgat in Anatolia. Turkey would purchase Israeli tanks and air force technology.

[MrPsycho]

Nope, actually there is almost no water there. The water they receive is given by us for them. Most of the Israeli water is in the Kineret lake which is located in northern Israel and in other underground water sources which most of them located near the shore. Recently, Israel has signed an agreement with turkey to import water from them and we are building (and already have 1) factories that will purify water from the sea.

Ok I only heard the water thing on NPR, so I profess my knowledge of the issue is limited in scope and I probably don't know more than someone who actually lives there.  Besides, I have heard that NPR is biased towards the palestinians anyways.

In 1947 the UN decided to divide this land into 2. A Jewish one and a Palestinian, we the Jews were supposed to receive almost nothing from the land while they got the majority. We agreed, they didn't. In fact they tried to destroy us, and still do.

I know all about the war for independence, the six day war, the yom kippur war and other conflicts.  I was trying to ignore general Arab/Israeli conflicts because they're not especially relevant to the topic.  If Leo would like, perhaps he can explain things to me like why Prime Minister Begin agreed to Palestinian self-determination in the Egypt treaty, yet the formation of a separate state never happened.  I suppose "security issues" can be cited, yet the region doesn't appear very secure to me now anyways.  The palestinians will never give in; they want complete independence and a permanent line drawn between the two (like I mentioned before I think certain religously important sites should be neutral).  Why is Isreal so opposed to a palestinian state?

From an outsider's perspective, all I can see are strikes and counter strikes and retaliatory strikes and preemptive strikes from all sides.  I don't think either side is absolved from guilt- which is what makes me angry when my jewish friends start ranting about how completely innocent Israel is.  Yes, it is true every nation around yours wants you destroyed, and I sympathize.  You probably do give tremendous aid to the palestinians anyways (of course, the United States gives tremendous aid to Isreal).  But why do you kill Hamas leaders and raid villages and accidentally kill innocent people.  Why not just give them what they want?

[MrPsycho]

Well, in an effort to educate myself I googled the concept of a palestinian state and I got this f.l.a.m.e. article:

http://www.factsandlogic.org/ad_79.html

I already knew the argument that there are no true "palestinian" people, and the word itself is a roman designation.  But after reading the security arguement, I now understand why Israel would not want a palestinian state.  However, if the plan is not to create a separate state- then what is the plan?  If the palestinians cannot govern themselves, how will they be represented?

[Edric O]

I think this poll is senseless. In times of Cold War it was easy. You could be with Moscow or Washington. Tyranny or freedom.

"Freedom" such as the one in Batista's Cuba, Pinochet's Chile, Sueharto's Indonesia, the dictatorships of South Korea and South Vietnam, or any other of the USA's tyrannical bed-buddies? "Freedom" such as the freedom of speech enjoyed by American communists, particularly during the 50's? "Freedom" such as the one enjoyed by leftists (not communists, just average left-wingers) slaughtered in pro-Washington dictatorships across the globe?

Washington fought for Washington, Moscow fought for Moscow. "Freedom" was a propaganda slogan meant for the naive. (and used equally by both sides, I might add)

And don't even bring up Reagan and Thatcher, the greatest enemies of the poor and exploited people of the world since 1945. The world is still suffering from the damage they've done (which consisted of rolling back decades of social reforms in their own countries, and encouraging other nations to do the same).

But let's get back on topic:

just like the bestial acts commited in fallujah.  How do people degenerate into that kind of mentality?

From what I gather, the bestial acts were commited against the dead bodies of two people who were responsible for similar acts themselves. Those "private contractors" (such a lovely euphemism) were hired mercenaries - which suggests they weren't exactly innocent.

[Wolf]

Actually, there were four people killed and mutilated in Fallujah, three of them were ex-Army Rangers, and one of them was an ex-Navy SEAL.

However, who they were doesn't make what was done to them any less wrong.