Iraq Photo Gallery

[GUNWOUNDS]

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http://home.wi.rr.com/davef/iraq.htm

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[danielsh]

Truly terrible. I wish none of this had happened.

I wonder how long it'll take for the Defense Department to run a DDoS attack on this site.

[Dude_Doc]

Where did you get the pictures? A friend of yours?

[Dante]

I thought these would have turned up long ago... about time they did too. If the logical reasons aren't enough to convince people, perhaps the emotive ones will be.

[ordos45]

I wonder how long it'll take for the Defense Department to run a DDoS attack on this site.

There are some good things there about U.S. troops...a medic helping another soldier, some others crouching beside an Iraqi man to see if he was alive.

[Dante]

Because kicking dead people isn't nearly so much fun...

[danielsh]

There are some good things there about U.S. troops...a medic helping another soldier, some others crouching beside an Iraqi man to see if he was alive.

I was referring to the fact that after the Memory Hole released photos of American servicemen's coffins, their site mysteriously went down. I'm normally not a conspiracy theorist, but the liberal blog community accused the Pentagon and other gov't groups of orchestrating it.

[sneezer3]

Sometimes it almost puts me to tears to think about people who have died fighting for freedom... :(

[ordos45]

Ah okay Dan, sorry my misunderstanding.

[Dante]

Sometimes it almost puts me to tears to think about people who have died fighting for freedom... :(

Like who exactly? People who died following stupid orders, yes, plenty of them...

[sneezer3]

Like who exactly? People who died following stupid orders, yes, plenty of them...

If saddam had the chance, I don't believe he would have hesitated to send a weapon here. In war you have to attack first.

Guess we had better not change the topic. Neither of us could sway eachother to agree on the war anyway.

[Wolf]

After America leaves Iraq, it will surely be freer than it would have been had Saddam stayed indefinately.

[Dante]

Ends don't justify means.

[sneezer3]

After America leaves Iraq, it will surely be freer than it would have been had Saddam stayed indefinately.

Depends on what the Iraqi people want really.

[Wolf]

But, does that not constitute freedom? If the Iraqis want a dictatorship, and then make one for themselves, that is still freer than the no-choice the Iraqis had before the war in Iraq.

[GUNWOUNDS]

"Ends dont justify the means..."

I think its time we analyzed this statement .... does this mean that you cannot look at a particular goal that you want.... and work backwards from that? ... basically seeing what you are willing to do to achieve that goal or "end" ?

I dont see anything wrong with working backwards from a desired goal and seeing what you are willing to do to achieve it....

:)

[danielsh]

What the statement means is that one cannot use the good results of an evil action to justify that evil action. If, for example, one wages a war for empire and wealth, but that war also creates democracy, one cannot say that one's war was therefore just. Just a completely hypothetical example, naturally...

[GUNWOUNDS]

What the statement means is that one cannot use the good results of an evil action to justify that evil action. If, for example, one wages a war for empire and wealth, but that war also creates democracy, one cannot say that one's war was therefore just. Just a completely hypothetical example, naturally...

well then i guess we would have to go and find out the Bush Administration's

[Wolf]

The Bush Administration did declare that it wanted to create democracy in Iraq. That WAS one of its intentions. If you then tell me that that wasn't "really" their intentions, then that is speculation, no matter how well-justified. In the end, ON THE BASIS OF LAW, we must go with what they said, not with what we think they really meant. That is not the way we want to judge men and women in our society. We must do so on fact, and the facts of the matter say that the administration intended democracy in Iraq to be a goal of the war, therefore, that was an intent of the war.

[danielsh]

If I say "I love you like a brother" and then proceed to shoot you in the face, it's very likely that, in spite of my kind words, I will still be convicted of murder. Similarly, if a government says "We want to create democracy in this country" and then takes every opportunity to serve its own interests rather than those of the country's people, it will be accused of being a self-serving and imperialistic entity in spite of its kind words.

And if you want to completely insist that the government had no ulterior motives whatsoever, and cares deeply for the Iraqis, and exists to serve them, and is not, in fact, made up of money-grubbing imperialistic warhawks, the fact that NO positive outcome could ever justify war still remains. The evil means to establish some good end are evil no matter what.

[Dante]

Now if only they'd say "Actually, all we cared about was the oil. The Iraqis can go starve for all we care." Perhaps we'd be getting somewhere. Good ends do not justify evil means but evil ends certainly do.

[Wolf]

I would venture a guess that we're doing much more in the way of creating democracy than we are serving our own interests; didn't the GC and IP just take control of Faulljah themselves? The Iraqis are talking back control of their country -- especially with a reformed Iraqi military taking over US positions -- and they are thus giving themselves a measure of freedom. So, until I see some hard proof of us serving our own interests, I think you're skepticism has crossed into the zone of pure prejudice and preconceived notions about the US.

Oh, and Dust? I actually think you might be right on that; I would have more respect for an honest evil than a dishonest one.

[Dante]

Well the fact is they were found out to be dishonest. When that happens it's just stupid to attempt to deny it. The trick is to hide that you're dishonest at all, that's clever. I respect that.

And the Bush Administration is not doing that.

[Wolf]

Actually, the Bush Administration just did that in Fallujah.

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2004/s1099075.htm

So, maybe you should try diversifying your readings? :)

And, what proof do you have that they were found to be disonest? I showed you mine, may I see yours?

[Dante]

That's hiding the fact that they're dishonest?