Bush Sr.'s memoirs

[ordos45]

Has anyone had the chance to read them?

[thomas]

dude! thanks for the actual wording, I remember mentioning it in these boards somewhere :)

[ordos45]

Yeah I think you mentioned it somewhere.  Can't remember wher, maybe Iraq Issues?

[Wolf]

I really didn't have any problem with Bush Sr.

[Dante]

He certainly seems to have more sense about him than his cursed offspring... I can't find anything to disagree with in that quote at least.

[Wolf]

Dust, come to think of it, you might really have something in common with Bush Sr. All those reason up there are practical, pragmatic, technical reasons, there doesn't seem to be much morality in there, and we both know how you feel about morality.

[Dante]

I guess I'll take that as a compliment.  ;D Thanks Wolfwiz.

[danielsh]

It makes one wonder if Bush Jr ever read his father's own book.

...or anything else, for that matter. Thanks for the quotation!

[Dante]

Yeah, thanks. It's been very useful...

[SurlyPIG]

There must have been a 300km/h north wind the day the apple fell from the tree...

[GUNWOUNDS]

Well frankly speaking ... Bush Jr. Proved his dad wrong on some points....

such as Saddam Hussien being impossible to capture as well as there being no "exit strategy".... we are exiting Iraqi and leaving them with an interim gov't with a new constituion signed by themselves... and they will have switch over rule on June 30th

However

[danielsh]

[...] as well as there being no "exit strategy".... we are exiting Iraqi and leaving them with an interim gov't with a new constituion signed by themselves... and they will have switch over rule on June 30th

Hahahaha! Ahahahaha! Ohh, mercy! A na

[Dude_Doc]

Yes - I am skepric about the situation in Iraq. If American troops leave now (okay, June 30th) the country will fall back into chaos. It would be like screwing their country and leave it for whoever has the power to keep the control.

In other words - the country will sooner or later come under another dictatorship with a religious fanatic.

I agree that it was a good thing that Saddam is gone and that the Iraquis are more free now than they were under Saddam. But, they lost tyranny and gained chaos. The only thing that can guarantee real freedom and democracy is - sadly - by force.

[danielsh]

But, they lost tyranny and gained chaos. The only thing that can guarantee real freedom and democracy is - sadly - by force.

The only thing that can guarantee real freedom and democracy is people. When the United States, or any other nation, for that matter, intervenes with military force to 'spread democracy,' chaos ensues. More often than not, we end up exerting our own will over the will of the people (ironically enough), and build resentment towards the US. Only through an internal revolution can democracy be properly established. There are cases in which nation-building has worked, most notably after World War II, but typically, those countries which we rebuilt were fairly modern nations before the war decimated them. We didn't have to force them through years and years of evolution in a few months, that is... they were already part of the way there. Plus, I don't think the antipathy towards America was so strong in Germany and Japan after WWII as it is in Iraq now.

I might be wrong on all those counts, but the fact is that force does not guarantee democracy any more than war guarantees peace.

[GUNWOUNDS]

The only thing that can guarantee real freedom and democracy is people. When the United States, or any other nation, for that matter, intervenes with military force to 'spread democracy,' chaos ensues. More often than not, we end up exerting our own will over the will of the people (ironically enough), and build resentment towards the US. Only through an internal revolution can democracy be properly established. There are cases in which nation-building has worked, most notably after World War II, but typically, those countries which we rebuilt were fairly modern nations before the war decimated them. We didn't have to force them through years and years of evolution in a few months, that is... they were already part of the way there. Plus, I don't think the antipathy towards America was so strong in Germany and Japan after WWII as it is in Iraq now.

I might be wrong on all those counts, but the fact is that force does not guarantee democracy any more than war guarantees peace.

Dan its easy to sit on the side of apathy and say we should have left them alone ....

you know what?... if we left them with Saddam they were fucked....

if we leave them on June 30th .. and the wrong people take over... then they are still fucked.... things wont have changed....

only difference will be that someone tried to get them out of their fuckedness.

[danielsh]

I am certainly not "sitting on the side of apathy." I think that we should have done anything in our power to help the people of Iraq... anything short of war. But the simple fact is, we didn't care about the people. Bush & pals never considered alternatives to war, because they weren't looking for a way to smoothly transfer democratic power to the Iraqis, they were looking for war. They were looking for a means to oil, wealth, power, and empire. Not democracy and liberty.

[ordos45]

you know what?... if we left them with Saddam they were fucked....

if we leave them on June 30th .. and the wrong people take over... then they are still fucked.... things wont have changed....

only difference will be that someone tried to get them out of their fuckedness.  Gave them a chance. 

One word:  Iran.  Saddam Hussein was a power that kept Iran in check, and kept their influence from spreading through the Gulf.  If Iraq were to join Iran in an Islamic Republic, the superpower would quickly crush every nation in the Middle East but Syria (due to WMDs they could probably hold out longer).

At least that's my view on it.

[Dante]

such as Saddam Hussien being impossible to capture as well as there being no "exit strategy".... we are exiting Iraqi and leaving them with an interim gov't with a new constituion signed by themselves... and they will have switch over rule on June 30th

What powers exactly are going to be handed over to this government? We have no control.

Who are we going to hand them over to? There are any number of conflicting parties and no plan has been made for who's to actually be in the government.

Where is this new constitution and what does it say? Who signed it and were they the right person? Is there even a constitution yet?

Will they really have rule by June 30th? I highly doubt that. We don't know what to hand over, who to hand it to, where or when to hand it... It's a mess.

Dan its easy to sit on the side of apathy and say we should have left them alone ....

you know what?... if we left them with Saddam they were fucked....

if we leave them on June 30th .. and the wrong people take over... then they are still fucked.... things wont have changed....

So? Not our problem. They weren't our business before and now a lot of them want us out so let's go. We never had any business being there in the first place. And when things get worse (which they will) everyone will blame us. Not Saddam.

How deliciously ironic...

EDIT: O45, you have a point.