Christ and Antichrist

[Caid Ivik]

At first this is pure mysticism, speculation.

I was wondering about the well known moment of Bible. Pontius Pilatus held the tradition of giving amnesty to one criminal during feast of Pascha, and so he asked Jews whether they want Jesus or one rebel named Barabas. Jews have chosen Barabas to be freed, so Jesus was taken up to Golgotha and executed. He sacrificed himself, by resurrection defeated death and thus he, we can say, opened Heaven for human souls. Alles klar.

But what about Barabas? This character fades in history and we know nothing more about him. According to Josephus Flavius he led a group of jewish rebels against protectorate forces of Rome. Like Bar Kochba in smaller scale. We can say he wanted to liberate Israel and thus revive the ancient empire. OR we can say: he wanted to defeat Romans. Jesus wanted to create an empire for us in heaven, with Church as its "ambassade". Maybe if Barabas would be crucified, Jews would be enraged and start a holy war against Rome. Don't forget that Jews lived in every part of the Imperium. New order will be placed upon whole (roman) world with a godly emperor, worshipped as messias, tough false, as shows John's Apocalypse.

So while Jesus' sacrifice led to order of love, peace and opened heaven, Barabas' may led to order of hate against Rome, war and opened hell. I think you have clear now mit whom I ment Christ and with whom the Antichrist. Express your opinions.

[alchemi2]

If i remember my history & RE lessons right. Barabas was a small time rebel leader (labelled a bandit) His supporters seeded the crowd and took up the call for his freedom, controlling the Mob to secure his realise.

The Romans as a standard, executed many minor Guerilla type leaders in Judea at that time, so his execution would not have lead to a massive uprising.

At no point is Barabas refered to as the son of the Devil which he would need to be to be the Antichrist.

If Christ hadn't been executed at that time but released then no doubt he would have continued preaching until he was retaken and executed.

Surely your missing the whole point of redemption, He had to die for our sins, he had to deny God to sink to the lowest depths of Hell before being redeemed by his father God, so as to open Heaven to all that believe in him regardless of their Sins.

[TMA_1]

hmm dont know about that, but that sparked a memory of an idea I had.

It is completely a what if situation, but it is completely true from my standpoint.

What if Jesus would have been tempted by Satan? Remember satan offered him the entire world if he would submit to him. Well if he did submit, would he then become the anti christ right there? Remember in revelations The Beast will be the dictator, and will eventually be possessed by Satan himself. He will use the dictator of Palistine as the anti christ and so on. What if jesus would have submitted? would he have then becoem the antichrist?

now obviously this veers on blasphamy if you take it the wrong way, and it would have been impossible for jesus to submit because I am of the school that says it was impossible for jesus to sin. Still though makes ya think.

[Caid Ivik]

Repeating, this is only speculation.

Maybe Jesus wasn't a God, but a simple angel, maybe higher one. It is possible that he was put before decision to become Christ - or Antichrist. If he wasn't God, moments like seductions on desert and later on cross may have been truly dangerous for us. Don't forget, it was Jesus, who defined our morale. Anything he would do would be no sin. He started era of love. But if he would decise otherwise, it could be anything else.

[TMA_1]

well dont get me wrong caid, that is actually interesting stuff, but as I go strictly with my interpritation of the scriptures, I can only believe what he says he is, the God/man. That is how I interprit it and it just would be wrong for me any othre way. Hope you understand, I think you will because you are pretty cool with that stuff caid. Though I do think that idea is neat. It is a tad jehovah's witnesses though.

[ordos45]

Interesting...though a bit blasphemous.  My own speculation is, that the Anti-Christ (being a counterfit of Christ) would be a Jew.  Which would go along with all of this speculation in a way.

[Caid Ivik]

Well, tradition says that Antichrist will be from israeli tribe of Dan. That's why John in Apocalypse ment 11 tribes of Israel, but replaced the Dan house with Menasses, one bloodline of Levi.

[ordos45]

Hmm...thanks Caid, didn't realize that.  Although on the topic of Jesus being "Super Angel" I asked some people on the Exwitch Ministries forum for help and one came up with these verses.

Hebrews 1

God, who at many times and in many ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds, who being the shining splendor of His glory, and the express image of His essence, and upholding all things by the word of His power, through Himself cleansing of our sins, He sat down on the right of the Majesty on high, being made so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

For to which of the angels did He say at any time, "You are My Son, this day I have begotten You?" And again, "I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son?" And again, when He brings in the First-born into the world, He says, "And let all the angels of God worship Him." And of the angels He says, "Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire." But to the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated iniquity, therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your fellows." And, "You, Lord, have laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of Your hands. They shall perish, but You will remain. And they shall all become old as a garment, and as a covering You shall fold them up, and they shall be changed. But You are the same, and Your years shall not fail."

But to which of the angels, did He say at any time, "Sit on My right hand until I make Your enemies Your footstool?" Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation?

Hebrews 2

Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. For if the word spoken by angels was steadfast, and if every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by those who heard Him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with different kinds of miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

For He has not put in subjection to the angels the world to come, of which we speak. But one testified in a certain place, saying, "What is man, that You are mindful of him; or the son of man, that You visit him?

You have made him a little lower than the angels. You crowned him with glory and honor and set him over the works of Your hands. You subjected all things under his feet." For in subjecting all things to Him, He did not leave anything not subjected to Him. But now we do not see all things having been subjected to him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that He by the grace of God should taste death for all. For it became Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons into glory, to perfect the Captain of their salvation through sufferings. For both He who sanctifies and they who are sanctified are all of One, for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brothers, saying, "I will declare Your name to My brothers; in the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You." And again, "I will put My trust in Him." And again, "Behold Me and the children whom God has given Me." Since then the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise partook of the same; that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death (that is, the Devil), and deliver those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For truly He did not take the nature of angels, but He took hold of the seed of Abraham. Therefore in all things it behoved him to be made like His brothers, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of His people. For in that He Himself has suffered, having been tempted, He is able to rescue those who are being tempted.

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He who denies the Father and the Son is antichrist.

2Th 2 Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that Day shall not come unless there first comes a falling away, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself forth, that he is God.

And attached to that was an explanation from the person:

There have been many anti-christs. The Anti-Christ, is usually considered the 'beast' of Revelation. Whose image it will be required to worship and who will cause a mark to be placed on the hand or forehead. Who will organize one world government, and with the 'false prophet' one world religion. The Anti-Christ will arise out of the old Roman Empire.

Thanks for the verses if you read this topic Skye, I'm not that handy with a Bible unfortunately.

[Anathema]

I have always thought of the anti christ of a force that tries to withold people from redemption, and ultimately results in the Beast ruling the world as a dictator. Can't cite any verses at the moment though.

[Caid Ivik]

Rise of Antichrist as political leader is a thing of apocryphes, not the original Apocalypse. However, while we are speculating, anything is allowed.

[Dude_Doc]

Interesting. The Roman Empire could basically mean, uh, the whole world? Since the Roman Empire was the "first Western Empire" so to speak. They can't mean Berluscioni is the anti-christ, right?

[Wolf]

I'm not sure, what's the extent of his power?

[Caid Ivik]

Interesting. The Roman Empire could basically mean, uh, the whole world? Since the Roman Empire was the "first Western Empire" so to speak. They can't mean Berluscioni is the anti-christ, right?

Well, in that time we could say so, however there are some states with larger land today.