the Bene Gesserit Paradox

[TMA_1]

Now, if you read in the later books, even earlier ones, the bene gesserit constantly talk about how they survive. They "adapt" and change with the times, and always strive to hide behind the scenes.

But what the hell is this, they are the most dogmatic and single minded group, survival of their caste.

All they care about is survival, but hold no "noble purpose" as Leto II says. Leto II made a prophetic gorup of statements that talked about the bene gesserit. That they are just a "secret society". He brought up the point about what is the point in surviving if there is no reason to survive? why survive just for the sake of keeping survival?

there are so many illogical ideals that the bene gesserit hold to. For instance, they complicate matters with their ideas. THey constantly talk about things in a manner of overthinking, They see a lack of intelligence or a lack of knowledge as a flaw, as something to be scorned. They see any who strive for simplicity as a bumpkin. They even scorn people like the tleilaxu for their beliefs, when the tleilaxu I dare say are even greater a caste than the bene gesserit in intelligence and knowledge of the world.

They are just so one sided, trying to strive for a unification of knowledge. Striving to survive, but with no purpose behind survival.

every single program is made for survival! the missionaria protectiva, meant to manipulate religion in order to survive in all cultures.

the KH, using the missionaria protectiva, the KH was meant to enable the bene gesserit to have a powerful messiah to tap into all local cultural beliefs, to control the known universe, again survival!

Frank was a genius though, because isnt what all power seekers strive? survival? it call comes down to that. And it seems that very few of us ask ourselves, what is the point of surviving if all we care about is surviving?

I guess it comes down to instincts, instincts are often overpowering. Many like me believe that we can overcome our human nature to believe in something more, but the best argument against that for me, for atheism, is probably the prevalence of instinct. and how deeply it effects us like animals.

I still overpoweringly see something more, that wouldnt ever change.

what do you guys think of the bg, and their hypocracy.

[Atomic Mitten]

I think this may well have been intentional on Frank Herbert's part,so as to portray the Fremen folk as a simple people, as simple people are presumed to be more susceptable to suggestion.

So that the reader is put in a position of smugness somewhat.In that he or she feels that they are equal if not better than the characters, as they see both sides in perspective.

On one hand they can understand , that the Bene Gesserit are somewhat pompous but necessary to the story line, building on the Prophecies and Legends of the Fremen.Paul Atreides being born with the necessary powers to advance to being the Messiah.

Which makes it all believable and enthralling to the viewer/reader.Frank Herbert was truly a genius and his legend will live on forever.

Having said that I must admit to feeling his sons are just profiting on their Fathers genius,reading between the lines ,I think they resented somewhat their Fathers genius as a writer.

To say their writing their own Dune books and not basing their books on their fathers notes, is confirmation for me of this.If they don't use the notes conciously then surely subconciously.

What do you guys think ?

[TMA_1]

I dont think they resent frank...

Oh I know it was done on purpose, I was just showing what it says in the story, pointing out what Is ee, I agree with you on manyt parts though.

[Atomic Mitten]

Well I got that impression reading some of the interviews with his sons, I maybe wrong though. ;)

[Vanguard3000]

I guess it comes down to instincts, instincts are often overpowering. Many like me believe that we can overcome our human nature to believe in something more, but the best argument against that for me, for atheism, is probably the prevalence of instinct. and how deeply it effects us like animals.

It's interesting you should say that, TMA, since the Bene gesserit believed so fervently that they were above animal instinct. Take the Box/Gom Jabbar test, for example. They did this to show that humans could override their instinct, which was to remove their hand from the box, relieving their pain.

[TMA_1]

hehe... simple (or complex) tests cannot shake all instinct from a human animal. The bene gesserit motives are often pretty superficial and skin deep.

[Vanguard3000]

Agreed. It may be stifled, but there is no way to totally and completely remove animal instinct from onesself.

...At least, not yet. ;)

[TMA_1]

wha, what are you talking about you freaking inhuman animal! wait a second, by taking away all instinct, you wouldnt be an animal, but you would be damn inhuman you bastard.lol ;)

[Egeides]

GOAL:

I think that the Bene Gesserit does not have as a goal the survival of everything, but only the survival of what they call "human". Thus, it is about bringing a state of mind, a state of being, which is facilitated by some genetic patterns. It is normal for them to be against Tleilaxus since those are not human anymore, and they do not aim to further the human being but only the body, for "vulgar" goals.

HOW:

Like mahayannist buddhist, they are against "overthinking" but also willing to act in the world and think so that they can bring the rest of the world to their ideal. It is not about knowing everything, but of doing everything that will bring what they want.

[TMA_1]

Like mahayannist buddhist, they are against "overthinking" but also willing to act in the world and think so that they can bring the rest of the world to their ideal. It is not about knowing everything, but of doing everything that will bring what they want.

I highly disagree with that, I mean it is well said, and nothing against you since I like most of your ideas, but here I think you are wrong. If you read what the bene gesserit say, and what they think, You will see they are highly complex, and avoid simplistic ideas. They are the exact image of overthinking, and how they act deals with an almost ADD fervancy of overthinking. They look things over again, and then again, they analyze and overdo that, that is how I see it.

THey also are for the survival of the bene gesserit. That is their primary drive for the sisterhood. Why do you think differently? I mean they actually state that. Especially in Heretics and so on. That their primary purpose is the survival of the BG.

[Egeides]

1- I agree that the BG's goal is the survival of the BG (see point 2), but I believe there's a reason for that. They believe in the advancement of Man (in their own way), and they believe that this can be done through the BG's acts.

2- Even then, I think it is not exact: I think that there goal is in fact the survival of the BG's heritage and its achievement, instead of the survival of the BG itself as a group/structure/etc. We see this when Odrade, if I remember correctly, says that everything has an end (even the BG) and that it should be accepted to let it flow and it will continue. Consequently, if the goal is the continuity of the BG goals, we can say that the goal is NOT simply the BG's survival but what it brings.

About their habit to check everything, what I'm saying is that, as the Mahayanists, what really is is simple, but they decide to accept the complicated aspect (non-sense to them) simply to help all the rest to approach their ideals.

- They look at the whole, a "universal everything", "universal One" (simple);

- They live in a particular position (non-universal) which is NOT simple, espescially not to change the others and the environment (as the Mahayannists)

We can see that the BG is really a whole, everyone socially sticked together, everyone for the whole, for ONE entity which has ONE ideal. Casequently, we can see that the ideal may be One, simple, but the way to bring humanity there is not necessarily simple.

[Dante]

The sisterhood must endure.

Interestingly, they do not focus on survival of themselves as individuals (as we do) but as a group. As, if I understand correctly, Egeides said. But as was asked, why survive if the only reason is survival?

There is the somewhat superficial view of power. And "She who laughs last, laughs loudest/longest." Depending on your view. If the BG survive then they will evnetually take over. But it is clearly obvious that the BG have no interest in political power at least in the first few books.

But I think the BG are more than that. They may not have one goal (although it is possible). They may have several goals, which explains the existance of several breeding programs, not all of them Kwisatz Haderach related. What these goals are is less clear.

The thoughts that Odrade had may show this. She experienced confusion. And why should there be confusion for the Mother Superior if the Bene Gesserit had a clear and single goal?

The Bene Gesserit are more than a sum of their members. And I think that the prequels oversimplify them. I certainly don't claim to understand the Bene Gesserit. S'why I like them so much.