Dune's collectivism

[Egeides]

Beyond the Infinite (our new active poster. Who is he??) pointed ou the collectivism of the Duniverse.

I wondered if each one could point out what brings Dune's societies to look so "collective" instead of individualistic. I'm simply interested into te subject since Beyond the Infinite said that SW is individualistic while Dune also has individual heros fighting for the collectivity... So it brings some questions about what makes Dune so collectivist.

So let the litterary analysis begin!! ;)

[Andrew]

Beyond the infinite is TMA-1, he just changed his

Name:

This is the displayed name that people will see.

in his profile

And I think it was SpiceGuid who said:

Moreover there is something that makes a big difference between Dune and SW: Star Wars is rather a manifest of individualism (one vs. all), Dune is rather a manifest of collectivism (one does not count). Such a deep departure from Dune can't be hidden by whatever many small superficial similarities. When it's the other side of the coin, then obviously it's the same coin.

Dune fighting for collectivity, could be said as for the survival of the human race. In Dune their seems to be a lot more to do with Gods, (Maud'Dib, LetoII) which can more easily bring the people together (with the help of politics). (unlike in StarWars, where I don't remember their being Gods)

To be Moral, he implies [Frank], a being must be willing to die, and to be a good God must be prepared to abdicate.

(McLean 150) In Dune, you must be willing to die to survive. People beleive these Gods, and thus are brought together to him. Both LetoII and Maud'Dib show that they are Gods by preparing to die for humanity.

The only form of immortality that herbert appears to trust is the immortality of a race, not an individual.

(McLean 151)

This could be a reason for collectivism.

Each [hero] also inhabits a world that suffers symbolic deficiencies and eithor acts to make that world spiritually significant or, in some way, to make humankind more comprehensible to itself.

(Palumbo 441)

Since each place has a deficiency people have to bond together to survive, or at least to make it significant.

McLean, Susan. "A Question of Balance: Death and Immortality in Frank Herbert's Dune Series". Death and the Serpent: Immortality in Science Fiction and Fantasy. (1985): 145-152.

Palumbo, Donald. "The monomyth as fractal pattern in Frank Herbert's Dune novels". Science Fiction Studies 25.3 (Nov. 1998): 433-58.

[Inoculator9]

I doubt this helps significantly, but Herbert's book "Green Brain" shows that he has given more then just a little thought to the concept of a hive mind. I think his feelings towards that concept might have influenced social and character interactions in Dune.

[Caid Ivik]

TMA has changed his name just after I've told him that "tma" means "darkness" in slovak... Altough I'm not sure what was the reason.

About Dune, we can't say what form is over others. Bene Gesserit and Tleilax are collectivistic, anyone using free will is marked as deviant. But in fact, these "deviants" are primarily positive characters, altough they fight against other egoists. Sometimes, it is harder: in God Emperor, such scale is n't usable.

[Egeides]

My hypothesis is a bit different but not incompatible:

The population in Dune relates to its leaders as in a fascist regime which in fact is an evolution of feodalism. In Dune, the elite is doing everything directing people's life. In the case of SW, the elite (Jedis) is not directing for the people and consequently, the population isn't as dependent on it as in Dune.

Of course, it's not only about the elite, but about everything concerning the elite and how the population feels about the direction of politics, economy, etc. The population is put in awe of the elite, is out of politics in favour of the elite.

[Caid Ivik]

That's not fascism, it's feudalism. Empire isn't centralised, but divided to various lords, which served dynasty of Corrino. Aristocrats demand only taxes from their people, armies are composed of mostly mercenaries. Feudal lords have no ideology, they practise politics based on situation.

[Egeides]

I disagree with you Caid. I believe that fascism and feudalism are highly compatible, fascism being the modern extension of feudalism with:

- a higher degree of theorization

- modern methods permitting centralization

Feudal lords were applying politics based on situation, but it's also the case for everyone in politics. You apply the ideology on the situation, and they did have an ideology, albeit with alot less structure. There were some rules and it was Machiavelli at work. In fact, Machiavelli really did used some examples from the feudal world and he did try to theorize the feudal world as he did for the other periods.

[SpiceGuid]

I agree with Egeides, collectivism in Dune is of a facist nature:

* abdication of people, power to the elite

* rigid elitist education

* people declared genitically unequal

* one does not count, only race matters

* either race survival or mass disaster (but both at end)

* race engineering

If not enough, just consider how Jews are concealed.

Also one role of second memory is obviously to honor victims of facism.

Compared to Dune, elitism in SW is merely pretention and personal glory.