Hell is wrong, but people deserve hell...

[Edric O]

All the options are not absurd, and that excluded option is death. The end. Fin. Omega. It may be unjust, but it is less unjust than the alternatives. It is not, however, absurd at all.

Hmmm, this just occured to me: Who exactly gets to define what is "just" or "unjust"?

Whether it is better is a matter of opinions. It is undisputably more fair, however, because it allows for reform, rehabilitation, escape, success, and failure.

Yes, it does. But then it is an endless cycle of reform, rehabilitation, escape, success, and failure. I can easily understand why Buddhists seek to escape this cycle.

Nowhere in the Bible do I recall reading that any part of Hell could be described as mild discomfort, or Heaven as slight happiness. Not that it's very important in the greater scheme of things. For all any of us know you could be right.

Well, the Bible doesn't really describe much of Heaven and Hell in the first place...

Why make that distinction? You have no idea how intelligent that being is. Though I would hope it is. In fact that's the whole reason I'm arguing. I don't think that a being intelligent enough to create the unverse, or at least to create life on our planet, would establish such illogical policies pertaining to the afterlife.

If you want to question the nature of God, that's a whole new topic. But the Judeo-Christian God IS an infinite being, and therefore we have quite a big distinction between Him and finite beings like us.

The argument is lame because it's so weak. It's essentially saying "You're too dumb to understand it so don't try just follow it without question."

Actually, the argument is "We're both too dumb to understand it, so why are you asking me to explain it to you?". I never said you should follow it. That's your choice to make.

With all the simplicity of the concept of the Judeo-Christian afterlife, and all the questions raised by its very nature, doesn't that indicate to you that maybe it's not the creation of any omniscient being? That's not to say that simplicity = stupidity though. It's simple, but not logically simple. To me it seems no more intelligent than what the minds of people 2000 years ago could come up with.

Or perhaps it's no more intelligent than what the minds of people 2000 years ago could understand...

[Acriku]

Actually, the argument is "We're both too dumb to understand it, so why are you asking me to explain it to you?". I never said you should follow it. That's your choice to make.

You don't see someone believing in something without understanding it as weak? I find it careless, irresponsible, negligent, and an injustice to yourself.

Hmmm, this just occured to me: Who exactly gets to define what is "just" or "unjust"?

I'd say that is irrelevant. Death is indiscriminate and infinitely quick. It is a great thing.

[Edric O]

You don't see someone believing in something without understanding it as weak? I find it careless, irresponsible, negligent, and an injustice to yourself.

So you understand everything about the universe, Acriku? ::)

I believe the universe exists, even though I understand only a tiny fraction of how it all works.

Sometimes you need the strength to recognize your own limits.

I'd say that is irrelevant. Death is indiscriminate and infinitely quick. It is a great thing.

That's precisely the problem! Death is indiscriminate. No justice is being served. Only an unjust God would allow death to be the end.

[Acriku]

So you understand everything about the universe, Acriku?

I try not to believe in things so strongly without even understanding them. That's blind faith. It's also irresponsible, negligent, and an injustice to yourself. But you already know that ;)

That's precisely the problem! Death is indiscriminate. No justice is being served. Only an unjust God would allow death to be the end.

So you would rather satisfy your earthly thirst for revenge and force people to eternal punishments, and rewards, than letting them cease to exist? You said that you would rather die than live as a slave, well why aren't you feeling the same way in this situation?

[Edric O]

I try not to believe in things so strongly without even understanding them. That's blind faith. It's also irresponsible, negligent, and an injustice to yourself. But you already know that. ;)

Okay, so you don't believe too strongly in the universe? ;)

The idea that a finite being could possibly understand the thoughts of an infinite one is illogical, Acriku. You're asking me to do something which is logically impossible.

So you would rather satisfy your earthly thirst for revenge and force people to eternal punishments, and rewards, than letting them cease to exist? You said that you would rather die than live as a slave, well why aren't you feeling the same way in this situation?

I have a thirst for justice, Acriku. The guilty must be punished and the innocent rewarded. I would not follow a God which would leave the guilty unpunished and the innocent unrewarded.

[Acriku]

Okay, so you don't believe too strongly in the universe? ;)

The idea that a finite being could possibly understand the thoughts of an infinite one is illogical, Acriku. You're asking me to do something which is logically impossible.

The idea that the universe exists seems to be understood by myself. But even so, I do not understand much of the universe - yet I, and every other scientist, strive to learn about it and make laws, facts, and theories about the universe. I'm afraid it's hard to say the same for yourself, unless you call personal prayer and revelation 'learning'. You seem to stop at "we don't understand".

I have a thirst for justice, Acriku. The guilty must be punished and the innocent rewarded. I would not follow a God which would leave the guilty unpunished and the innocent unrewarded.

I also would not follow a god which would make the people suffer infinite sins from being guilty of finite sins, and have people rewarded infinitely for what they did in their finite lives. It doesn't equate.

[TMA_1]

I try not to believe in things so strongly without even understanding them. That's blind faith.

wow, didnt know you had a time machine at your house, so you could see the details of initial creation. The way you talk, you must understand everything and anything in the universe. ;)

[TMA_1]

edric, why do you believe it takes more than faith to go to heaven? If christ died for all sins, then what sin could be enough to send an individual to hell? If sin is not an issue anymore than the bible is correct in saying that we do good deeds to please God. Even in ancient israel it worked that way. "abraham believed, and it was acredited to his account of righteousness." The law itself was as paul said a tutor, not a savior. You didnt go to heaven by abstaining from all the things the ten commandments said to. You went to heaven because you realized that you couldnt abstain from those sins. That is why they had animal sacrifice, it was a sign of christ, a pure and innocent creature that would clense the world. It seems that you dont boast of anything but the works of man. If that isnt the case then how can you boast the cross of christ if you dont believe it is absolute in security for heaven?

also why does everybody think it is silly that God would reward those who believe? Suddenly people have a total understanding of transcendant, Godlike thinking? It seems that people overreach themselves and add their own ideas of overtranscendancy to God. If God created the universe, than he is a personal God, with personal interests in this universe. If that is the case then why is it hard to believe he would take personal interest in beings that can comprehend slightly it's existance?

[Acriku]

also why does everybody think it is silly that God would reward those who believe? Suddenly people have a total understanding of transcendant, Godlike thinking? It seems that people overreach themselves and add their own ideas of overtranscendancy to God. If God created the universe, than he is a personal God, with personal interests in this universe. If that is the case then why is it hard to believe he would take personal interest in beings that can comprehend slightly it's existance?

Are you even considering what is going on? I don't believe, I go to hell for eternity. I do believe, I go to heaven for eternity. Hardly justice. Unless you believe in the good deeds dealie, which you explained before so I guess you do, in which it still doesn't make sense. Someone gets punished eternally for doing bad deeds (such as?) for a very short finite time, and someone else gets rewarded eternally for doing good deeds (such as?) for a very short finite time. Hardly justice.

[TMA_1]

didnt I just finish saying that you dont go to hell for doing bad deeds? good grief.lol you go to hell for rejecting God. It is your own fault, if you dont wish to accept God then you accept the path that you have chosen, which will guide you to hell, that simple.

[Acriku]

My mistake. But still, why does a "just" god send you to hell for eternity if you don't accept him? There's no justice in that. It also sounds like he has issues to deal with.

[Tio_Holtzmann]

i think it stems from The Original Sin, that is, the thing which distances us from god and makes us holy and acceptable <which perhaps only a truly Good being can accept>, which is inherent and inescapable in every single human being born. this comes from the adam and eve story <which i dont think i believe literally, i do believe that basically god made us, made us to choose to love and obey him, we turned from him, and the consequence is death>. it's something we can't change. god is the only person who is right for us and can make us holy and acceptable to him again. i used to think why am i a sinner by default because of the sin of one person <adam perhaps?> and then i think, if i was in a similar situation, i probly would have disobeyed god too.

as for the question of people who have never heard the gospel, i believe there actually is a verse in the bible which i think says that god pardons those who do not know of him. basically in society, ignorance of the law is no excuse. apparently with god, not knowing about him will be taken into account.

[Acriku]

as for the question of people who have never heard the gospel, i believe there actually is a verse in the bible which i think says that god pardons those who do not know of him. basically in society, ignorance of the law is no excuse. apparently with god, not knowing about him will be taken into account.

Could you point me in the direction of this verse? Thanks.

[Tio_Holtzmann]

i will try and find it for you, this has been preying on my mind since reading this discussion.....it is in the New testament for sure anyhoo, one of the letters....

ill try and get back to you on that one. i do remember thinking bout this before, reading this verse, thinking "yeah thats the answer" and like an eejit i forgot bout it.

and yes it does exist, this isnt a desperate attempt to stick up for xianity <joke> ;)

[Edric O]

edric, why do you believe it takes more than faith to go to heaven?

Well, first of all, because the Bible says so:

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."

- Matthew 16:27 (one verse among many)

Second, because a man's works are a measure of his faith. Saying that you believe in God and Jesus as our Saviour is easy. Actually proving your faith by following God's path is not so easy. And also, notice that Jesus spent a lot of His time - almost ALL of His time, actually - telling us how we should live our lives here on Earth. He talked a lot more about works than about faith, that's for sure.

[TMA_1]

so you are saying that God requires visual expression of faith in order to see that a person has faith? Didnt know you had such a limited view of God's knowledge.

God knows every thought and intention of man's heart. He knows who and who doesnt believe in Christ, it is between each individual and God, and God alone knows who is a believer and who isnt.

The verse you displayed is talking about believers. He will reward us in heaven according to the good works we have done in the name of christ. It does not say that he will damn us if we dont do good works, or that good works are a requirement to show God that we have faith.

It does say later that he will JUDGE us according to our works in revelations though. By the context and language around it though, it mentions the big and small, great and little, all coming to be judged. This is speaking strictly to unbelievers. That has to do with the white throne judgement in which all who dont believe are judged to hell. Pointing out that the book of life is full of people who believe in christ, that no matter how many good deeds are done, it does not do a thing to save an individual, therefore a person who isnt named in that book is damned, and all of his or her futile works are worthless.

hmm, more about works than salvation? Ever wonder why? Christ had not yet died and resurrected. He taught majorily of his coming death, and that israel needed to repent. He taught all he did because he was giving israel one last chance to follow the old ways of the old testament, since they did not in the end though as a nation, he turned to all nations after his death and resurrection. You look at the bible as a shallow pool, but in reality it is a well that is hundreds of feet deep. The bible is like good poetry, it has meanings within meanings within meanings. If you take the things of christ at such a simple standpoint, you cannot fully understand the entire mystery of christ's goal on earth.

[Edric O]

so you are saying that God requires visual expression of faith in order to see that a person has faith? Didnt know you had such a limited view of God's knowledge.

God knows every thought and intention of man's heart. He knows who and who doesnt believe in Christ, it is between each individual and God, and God alone knows who is a believer and who isnt.

By that logic, we should be sent to heaven or hell as soon as we are born, because God already knows whether or not we would have believed in Him in life... ::)

How exactly do you measure faith, anyway? I measure it by the number of good works done in God's name, and I think He measures it in the same way.

The verse you displayed is talking about believers. He will reward us in heaven according to the good works we have done in the name of christ. It does not say that he will damn us if we dont do good works, or that good works are a requirement to show God that we have faith.

I never said that He will damn us if we don't do good works. But He will damn us if we do evil works (and never repent). Take the Inquisitors for example. They had faith in God, but they tortured and murdered thousands of people, without ever repenting. Do you think they will go to heaven?

And what about satan, then? He believes in God too...

It does say later that he will JUDGE us according to our works in revelations though. By the context and language around it though, it mentions the big and small, great and little, all coming to be judged. This is speaking strictly to unbelievers. That has to do with the white throne judgement in which all who dont believe are judged to hell. Pointing out that the book of life is full of people who believe in christ, that no matter how many good deeds are done, it does not do a thing to save an individual, therefore a person who isnt named in that book is damned, and all of his or her futile works are worthless.

Err, what kind of judgement is one where you already know the sentence before the judgement even starts? If God holds a judgement, that means He will actually judge people, not put a rubber stamp on the already existing sentence.

hmm, more about works than salvation? Ever wonder why? Christ had not yet died and resurrected. He taught majorily of his coming death, and that israel needed to repent. He taught all he did because he was giving israel one last chance to follow the old ways of the old testament, since they did not in the end though as a nation, he turned to all nations after his death and resurrection. You look at the bible as a shallow pool, but in reality it is a well that is hundreds of feet deep. The bible is like good poetry, it has meanings within meanings within meanings. If you take the things of christ at such a simple standpoint, you cannot fully understand the entire mystery of christ's goal on earth.

Or maybe He really did mean to say exactly what He said. The simplest logical answer is usually the correct one. I don't deny that many passages in the Bible have much deeper meanings, but you seem to be in a situation where you don't see the forest for the trees. Jesus gave us commandments because He wanted us to carry them out, not because He didn't have anything better to do.

Love thy neighbor as thyself.

[TMA_1]

Since when do works equate with faith? works are an application of love, but they arent faith. Faith is the first act of love towards God, and God will never forsake those who cheat on him so to speak.

There is a parable in the bible, which talks about how a man should never curse his wife if she cheats on him. That forgiveness should continually be in role. The reason being is He bonded with her, and made a commitment that will never end. That is why we are called the bride of christ. We believed, that was the marriage bond between us and God. God will never divorce us, and will never cast us away. He will always knock at the door, no matter what we do. The key is that we are brides of christ, and that seals us with God.

How can an imperfect creature incarnate itself into perfection? How can a creature work on it's own merit to morally, and therefore physically evolve past it's current state? God needs to be involved, and without God we could do nothing to better ourselves. That said, good works are meaningless to our salvation. We do works to edify christ, not to attain salvation. If we do evil works, then we have ran away from our husband, since when though have you mistaken the fact that God would leave us if we did so? It says throughout the bible that God will always knock on the door, and it is up to us to answer, that God's love will never end. A bond of marriage which is faith in it's true form, can never fail. Not even if we try and make it fail. what gives us the power to destroy God's love for us? it is impossible.

It isnt that I see your ideas as inferior, I just dont see where you are getting this from, and frankly all the things you have pointed out are extremely shallow interpritations of scripture. It is like you have read the bible, and totally missed all of the inside meanings within it, just took every word at face value. As I have said before, the bible is poetry. If you just read it like a text book, then you have no understanding of GOd, just the words on the paper. Look for meaning in the bible, not for words.

[Tio_Holtzmann]

which parable is that? the one with the cheating wife? i dont remember that....hmm......

[emprworm]

So we don't deserve infinite life, yet we can deserve infinite torture? How could a finite being POSSIBLY earn infinite punishment?

i didn't say infinite torture did I? I said that no finite human could possibly earn infinite life. What they earn is PERMA-DEATH. This is not the same thing as eternal consciouss torment (which I don't believe in)

[SurlyPIG]

Isn't that a Jewish belief? That there is no Hell, only death? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Hell was something constant across all denominations of Christianity. Or is it just your personal belief?

[TMA_1]

Well the jewish idea of heaven and hell is tricky. They DID believe in a sort of heaven and hell. if you dont believe me then look at all of the jewish historians and apologists, such as josephus who wrote an entire essay on hades. Also many of the previous jewish theologens wrote on it as well.

The ancient jewish idea of hell seems to be this, I am taking it from ecclesiasties, some of the psalms and jeremiah, in certain places.

All souls go to hades, but hades isnt torments itself. It contains the abyss, and abrahams bossom. You can read about this in the various apocriphal hebrew books like The Book of Enoch and whatnot.

There is a large gap between torments, or the abyss, where unbelivers and the angels that mated with humans before the flood are. You also have abrahams bossom which contains the saints of the jews and the prosolites. This can be found in daniel concerning his prophesies. Saints in the old testament is used, and refers to those who sacrificed according to the law to show god their heart wishes to be forgiven. All of the sacrifices are specific messages of a future messiah, that will be sent as an innocent animal to be ripped apart by mankind. That is why it is remembered with sacrifice. It isnt the sacrifice though that means anything, but the repentent heart of a person. Isaiah said that God does not require the blood of bulls and lambs. The reason why he said this is because the jews followed many of the rituals, but had hollow hearts while doing it. It is kinda like those people who go to church simply as a ritual, there is no real meaning in a person's heart.

It is a mistake to say that the cutting of foreskin is required for salvation, as it is only required for those who want to integrate themselves into the jewish culture. That is a huge mistake people have. As there were many believers who did not follow that ritual, as well as the dietary laws. Ethiopia is a great example, many were followers of the true God and his commandments. They were gentiles though and therefore did not need to follow the cultural laws that the jews had. If they wanted to integrate with the jews though they had to go through all the ritual. They did have to follow the decalog and spiritual and sacrificial laws. (I.E. they had to know how to sacrifice and what sacrifice was neccesary for certain types of sins commited. they also had to go to israel every year if possible to the temple.)

anyways.lol these who are believers go to abraham's bossom, to await the ressurrection, which was largely believed in the jewish community, though some sects of judeism denied the ressurrection.

This is what I have studied, and have learned by many great spiritual men, jewish and christian alike.

It is really complicated, and there are no definite answers. It would be really silly to say there is no afterlife in jewish beliefs, as so many of the great jewish theologens, and even parts of the bible protest to it.

also to Tio, read the epistles of john and peter, those are largely the paribles I am talking of.

I was not taught to know exact verses, as verses were added much later. I go by context, and the general area of an epistle or book.

many dont understand this though, and think that we christians use the bible like the muslems use the koran, and in some cases how the hebrews read the torah. We dont have to recite it in litany, and memorize every verse. It does help though when you are talking with somebody about it.

[Sneakgab]

Even if a being is extremely intelligent that does not mean that it never carries out actions that have logic behind them that is simple enough to understand for less intelligent being

For example, when a human is hungry and eats something, a dog would probably understand that he eats because he is hungry, even though he is not nearly as intelligent as a human

Just because something is intelligent, it does not mean that the logic behing all of that things actions are complicated... just because something is intelligent does not mean it uses all of it's mental power for everything it does

God is infinitely intelligent, but that does not mean that the logic behind his rulings are infinitely complicated. Therefore we can argue amongst ourselves.

And don't me that God's rulings must be perfectly moral and just because God is perfect, as I suspect that many people posting in this thread suspect that although God is perfect he is not neccesarily moral... if you believe in some of the things religions tell you anyway. That is why people here are posting on this thread, to argue religions. Not the logic behing a moral and just God's actions, but rather the logic behind what religions claim to be his rulings

So, enough of ''We cannot speak of what God's rulings because we could never understand why he made these rulings'' stuff please

[Tio_Holtzmann]

yeah but the point is that god can read all our thoughts desire wishes actions etc. <so it goes>. we can't do that with people. so why should we say who goes where? i know that doesnt totally answer all the situations in our debate......

[Sneakgab]

I haven't re-read you're older posts Tio, but if memory serves me well I agree with you ;D