Hell is wrong, but people deserve hell...

[TMA_1]

It says in the bible edric, that christ cannot let go of you once you believe. and that the father wouldnt allow himself to do so either because of christ.

It also says that salvation is not by works lest any man should boast. Paul said that.

It talks about Paul becoming a believer. He stoned dozens of christians. Many times he was the first to throw the stone to knock the person out or kill them, then every body else would pummel till the person was dead. He did it with such hate and anger that when he became a believer he said that he is the least deserving of going to be with the lord. But that christ died for every single sin. Sin isnt an issue, therefore works of the human persuasion are worthless to God. They do nothing to advance one's spiritual maturity. It is like Cain, when he offered his vegitables and grains to the Lord instead of a lamb. God asked for a lamb but he gave a different offering. People dont understand that Cain did what hed id for the best intentions. He wanted to give God the blessings that God gave him. He wanted to please God. He didnt listen though, and no matter your intentions, no matter what you do, if you dont listen to God then it is all worthless.

Dont assume that man is great enough to alter his or her destiny for heaven or hell. We all deserve hell anyways, but God gave us another way out of his grace. It has nothing to do with what we do, it has to do with what christ did, and if we believe it or not.

The eastern orthodox church like the catholic church is way too humanly established and focus' way too much on ritual. Their doctern somewhat fails because they focus on hierarchy, ceremony, human inventions ot spirituality. I dont know how you worship and I cannot evaluate how you do so as I dont have much info on the matter. I can however see that the eastern orthodox church is frankly no better in the doctern arena than the catholic church. The only time it did have great doctern was in it's infancy, when the power was not as overwhelming. That is where you get most of your great catholic schollers. Most of the new ones either come from monistaries or the orders inside catholicism, and they are looked down upon by their own spiritual kin.

[thomas]

ok heres my beleifs, I dont think non-beleivers should go to hell, I mean thats stupid becauise thats saying gandi whould go to hell and there are tons of really good people out there that aren't religious, I think alot of it got jumbled up a few centuries, millenia ago, but I think hitler should go t ohell, and if there is no god, I'd be mighty pissed because then over 10 million deaths go un-avenged, and this douche-bag hiler takes the easy way out (suicide) and gets no punishment. and that in my opinion is truely *language alert ;)* FUCKED UP >:( >:(

[SurlyPIG]

Just as a side note, I'd like to mention that only certain Protestant Churches believe that salvation and damnation come through faith alone. So it is NOT a "disturbing thing about Christianity" - it is a disturbing thing about certain Christian Churches.

Unfortunetaly, since these Churches form the majority in the US and Canada, many American and Canadian atheists forget that they are in fact only a small fraction of the total number of Christians in the world.

Actually I did know that. For the record, Christians in Canada are almost at a dead even split between Protestants and Catholics, and to me the catholic beliefs about the afterlife is almost as insane as the protestant ones. Almost. It's pretty chilling to think that, to protestants, the only thing separating Hitler from Heaven was faith, and that a guy like Hitler could be in Heaven while I and all the other non-Christians in the world are out by default. As for Catholicism, what does it matter whether you confess to a priest in private in the finite world anyway? Why should that have any effect where you end up for eternity. I have a lot of problems with the Christian beliefs about the afterlife, which is why I gave up the whole mess years ago. The biggest one, I can name in response to one of your posts;

But you forget about the "eternal reward" part. If they don't go to hell, they go to heaven, which means eternal reward. So are you saying that a person who rapes all the women on the planet and kills all the men deserves eternal reward? What kind of a God would reward such a person?

Of course not, but the finite crimes of finite people in a finite world shouldn't be punished infinitely. Likewise, people should not receive infinite, eternal rewards for one-time things they did in their finite lives. I know you're an Orthodox Christian but you're also very logical and reasonable and I don't think even you could dispute the above logic. I see the world in shades of grey. We're all grey to varying degrees, and I don't think a black and white afterlife is appropreate for grey creatures. Neither salvation by faith or by grace, or both, is logical to me. Technical idealism aside, how would anyone, even a God, even begin to quantify and to qualify the deeds people do in their lifetime? No matter how you look at there's good and bad in every one of us. Just my opinion.

[TMA_1]

Ace, what you say does make sense in certain respects, but are you thinking with the whole picture in mind? have you tried to empathize with God in a sense? Maybe instead of blasting something you dont understand, why dont you honestly try and understand it? if you still disagree, I have all the respect in the world for you because you had the character to study all avenues.

We are finite, but we have souls that are eternal. Therefore we live on forever and must be rewarded or punished on the level of eternity. It also acts like this. Those who become believers are "locked on positive" in heaven. Not in any weird way, it is just that our sin nature will be gone and we will think as completely different creatures. It isnt like God is not giving anyone a chance. Adam was the one to sink mankind into death. If you read carefully though, especially in the hebrew, you will see that after they are thrown out of paradise, they are given animal skins as a sign of a coming sacrifice. that is also when they start practicing sacrifice of specific animals. A sign of the coming messiah that will be slaughtered by mankind. It is kinda funny because the man who slaughters the animal is the representitive of the murderers of jesus, as well as satan. At the same time though it shows that God has much forgiveness. He would accept those who dont wish to reflect his glory. One action means everything, because no matter how many good or bad actions done, if they are away from the will of God they are pointless. If you dont listen to God, and wish to do things on your own, then you openly defy God. It isnt my business and frankly I wouldnt want to say anything because I respect you. I just wish you could see in a christian perspective. I know it might be hard, but at least try to empathize.

[Acriku]

I believe that hell, if it is indeed horrible (the NT has perhaps one or two verses describing it?), is horrible, and no one deserves it. Perhaps, when those people say some deserve hell they are not actually thinking about the eternity part. I don't care if one person raped every woman on this planet, and killed all of the men, no one deserves an eternal punishment. No way, no how.

But you forget about the "eternal reward" part. If they don't go to hell, they go to heaven, which means eternal reward. So are you saying that a person who rapes all the women on the planet and kills all the men deserves eternal reward? What kind of a God would reward such a person?

A forgiving god, edric. But nevertheless, from my point-of-view, murders don't go anywhere, world-savers don't go anywhere, and I don't go anywhere. It works out fine.

[emprworm]

of course we deserve hell.

no one, not one single person has EARNED infinite life.

tell me, all you mathematicians- how could a finite being POSSIBLY earn infinite life?

you cant.

therefore, if we all got what we deserved, it would be perma-death.

[HasimirFenring]

So we don't deserve infinite life, yet we can deserve infinite torture? How could a finite being POSSIBLY earn infinite punishment?

[SurlyPIG]

TMA, do you think that souls are created during conception, birth, or beforehand? At any rate, why should eternal souls be judged for their actions when they were trapped in a finite being?

Even then, the world isn't black and white and neither are people. Why should the afterlife be? Whether you're Hitler or Mother Theresa, nobody deserves infinite punishment or infinite reward...

[Edric O]

Actually I did know that. For the record, Christians in Canada are almost at a dead even split between Protestants and Catholics, and to me the catholic beliefs about the afterlife is almost as insane as the protestant ones. Almost. It's pretty chilling to think that, to protestants, the only thing separating Hitler from Heaven was faith, and that a guy like Hitler could be in Heaven while I and all the other non-Christians in the world are out by default. As for Catholicism, what does it matter whether you confess to a priest in private in the finite world anyway? Why should that have any effect where you end up for eternity. I have a lot of problems with the Christian beliefs about the afterlife, which is why I gave up the whole mess years ago. The biggest one, I can name in response to one of your posts;

I completely agree. I never said that Catholics were any better than Protestants. My own personal beliefs are a mixture of Orthodox/Catholic and Protestant ideas. On the one hand, I agree with Protestants that rituals are useless and that priests do not have any more power or wisdom than everyone else. On the other hand, I agree with Orthodox and Catholics that salvation comes through both faith and acts. (and there are plenty of verses in the Bible to support this - I have no idea how Protestants can ignore them)

Of course not, but the finite crimes of finite people in a finite world shouldn't be punished infinitely. Likewise, people should not receive infinite, eternal rewards for one-time things they did in their finite lives. I know you're an Orthodox Christian but you're also very logical and reasonable and I don't think even you could dispute the above logic. I see the world in shades of grey. We're all grey to varying degrees, and I don't think a black and white afterlife is appropreate for grey creatures. Neither salvation by faith or by grace, or both, is logical to me. Technical idealism aside, how would anyone, even a God, even begin to quantify and to qualify the deeds people do in their lifetime? No matter how you look at there's good and bad in every one of us. Just my opinion.

But if no one deserves infinite reward or infinite punishment, that means that at some point they must cease to exist. Their souls must die. And what kind of God would allow his children to die when He could save them?

You see, Ace, your logic puts God in an impossible situation. No matter what He does, it's unfair. Eternal punishment is unfair, eternal reward is unfair, and death is unfair. Then what exactly is He supposed to do?

A forgiving god, edric. But nevertheless, from my point-of-view, murders don't go anywhere, world-savers don't go anywhere, and I don't go anywhere. It works out fine.

Yes, a forgiving but unjust God would do that. Justice demands that Hitler be punished.

Read what I wrote above, in response to Ace. You're leaving God without any choices.

[Acriku]

Since when is eternal punishment justice?

Also, as to what you told to ACE, death is not unfair. My Rabbi told me when I was younger that if you don't get to heaven, you die, and cease to exist. There is nothing unfair about it. If it were up to me, there wouldn't be an eternity of anything.

[Edric O]

So you think death is fair, do you? Then let's look at two human lives:

1. A little girl from Africa. There are millions like her. She was born in a poor family which already had many other children. All her life, she knew only suffering and hard labour. Then, at the age of 8, she stepped on a landmine left behind by the soldiers who killed her father. She died a horrible death in the explosion.

2. Adolf Hitler. Probably the most evil man who ever lived. Responsible for tens of millions of deaths, and untold suffering. He was never judged, and never punished.

How exactly could a fair and just God allow both of these people to simply cease to exist once they died? How could He allow the greatest evil to go unpunished, and let the most innocent soul die a horrible death after living a horrible life, with no comfort in the afterlife? A good God would never do such a thing.

So, you see, death is very much UNfair.

[SurlyPIG]

But if no one deserves infinite reward or infinite punishment, that means that at some point they must cease to exist. Their souls must die. And what kind of God would allow his children to die when He could save them?

But why does it have to be infinite hell or infinite heaven? Like I said before, people are coloured in shades of grey. Shouldn't the afterlife reflect that? People are also dynamic, why should there afterlife be everchanging? In physical life, people can learn from their mistakes, better themselves and change who they are. Why should their souls be any different?

You see, Ace, your logic puts God in an impossible situation. No matter what He does, it's unfair. Eternal punishment is unfair, eternal reward is unfair, and death is unfair. Then what exactly is He supposed to do?

Well, the notion that He has to do something is another matter for debate entirely, and another set of illogicalities to sift through. What's the point of it all? What does He get out of this exercise of creation and judgement? And if he is going to test and judge, why not respond to each individual differently? Make their afterlife fit their physical life. And why would he deny people the chance to better themselves in the afterlife? Why does the final say have to come at the end of their physical lives? Why wouldn't he allow them to change, and based on their changes, reconsider their placement?

It's almost impossibly to argue things like this plausibly because the whole notion is so out of touch with reality that everything said becomes nothing but speculation. You could argue that the afterlife is timeless and a second might as well be a century. It's all conjecture, really.

[Acriku]

So you think death is fair, do you? Then let's look at two human lives:

1. A little girl from Africa. There are millions like her. She was born in a poor family which already had many other children. All her life, she knew only suffering and hard labour. Then, at the age of 8, she stepped on a landmine left behind by the soldiers who killed her father. She died a horrible death in the explosion.

2. Adolf Hitler. Probably the most evil man who ever lived. Responsible for tens of millions of deaths, and untold suffering. He was never judged, and never punished.

How exactly could a fair and just God allow both of these people to simply cease to exist once they died? How could He allow the greatest evil to go unpunished, and let the most innocent soul die a horrible death after living a horrible life, with no comfort in the afterlife? A good God would never do such a thing.

So, you see, death is very much UNfair.

So, you're expecting me to cry out in emotional rage for the little girl to go into heaven and Hitler to go to hell? Death is indiscriminate, and whether or not the person was innocent or guilty of many crimes death ends it all. I'd find it comforting if a black-and-white and certainly questionable method of rewarding and punishing people infinitely for what they did for about ~0-100 years did not exist. Remember your leader, Ghandi: An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind. Release your need for infinite revenge on finite crimes, and become humble.

[TMA_1]

I think empr meant that we dont deserve any sort of eternal reward. It is so hard for people who dont believe to accept the fact that sin isnt an issue! many christians try to stray away from this for fear of being looked upon as stupid and foolish. Well, if you are a paulist, you would see that he had to fight against many christians that wished to add adendums to faith. YOu have to believe AND be circumsized. You have to believe AND follow the dietary law. You have to believe AND honor the sabbath. Paul had to at times fight his own apostle brothers, except for a few who went from places like brittain, to india. Those that were in jerusalem were against paul for the simple idea that all sins were forgiven, and if so then there is no human who cannot be saved. many of you look at this as horrible, well I think it is an act of grace, giving all a chance to redeem themselves. Understand that even a hitler type could potentially ask for redemption. Now who are any of you? who have committed mental murder, committed fornication physically or mentally. Lied, cheated, stolen, coveted. See, we all need redemption, why take that from anybody? that is inhuman.

THe apostles at one time said that paul's idea of believing by faith alone was a boast.

now how heretical can you be? Saying that christ didnt do enough. In the end it can be argued but many cant and wont try to understand it. God does what he does, and if he is perfection then who can argue against him?

[Acriku]

It's a good thing Man's law does not equate mental thoughts with actual acts :O

[Edric O]

Acriku:

So, you're expecting me to cry out in emotional rage for the little girl to go into heaven and Hitler to go to hell?

No, I'm expecting you to see the injustice of an indiscriminate death, from a logical standpoint.

Death is indiscriminate, and whether or not the person was innocent or guilty of many crimes death ends it all. I'd find it comforting if a black-and-white and certainly questionable method of rewarding and punishing people infinitely for what they did for about ~0-100 years did not exist. Remember your leader, Ghandi: An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind. Release your need for infinite revenge on finite crimes, and become humble.

I don't feel any need for revenge. But 6 million Jews might. And I'd agree with them.

When the judge is absolutely impartial and omniscient (as God is), I don't think you can call the judgement "questionable". And I don't know what your idea of "justice" is, but having the guilty and the innocent share the same fate seems to me like an immense INjustice.

Ace:

But why does it have to be infinite hell or infinite heaven? Like I said before, people are coloured in shades of grey. Shouldn't the afterlife reflect that? People are also dynamic, why should there afterlife be everchanging? In physical life, people can learn from their mistakes, better themselves and change who they are. Why should their souls be any different?

Well, it has to be infinite something. Otherwise the souls would have to die at some point, which would make God cruel.

Yes, people are coloured in shades of gray. And so are heaven and hell, from what I remember. Think about Dante's vision of hell, for example: Not everyone gets the same punishment. Similarly, not everyone gets the same reward in heaven.

As for why the afterlife isn't dynamic, I suspect it's because our souls themselves are not dynamic. After you die, you can't change yourself like you could in life.

Well, the notion that He has to do something is another matter for debate entirely, and another set of illogicalities to sift through. What's the point of it all? What does He get out of this exercise of creation and judgement?

How can you expect to comprehend the thoughts of an infinite being? That's like an ant trying to understand why humans behave the way they do. If God is infinite, then there's no way for us to understand what's on His mind. No matter how much you dislike it, you have to accept that we humans DO have our limitations.

It's almost impossibly to argue things like this plausibly because the whole notion is so out of touch with reality that everything said becomes nothing but speculation. You could argue that the afterlife is timeless and a second might as well be a century. It's all conjecture, really.

For the sake of the argument, we're considering the existence of the Judeo-Christian God to be an axiom. Otherwise, this whole debate would be pointless.

[Acriku]

I don't feel any need for revenge. But 6 million Jews might. And I'd agree with them.

When the judge is absolutely impartial and omniscient (as God is), I don't think you can call the judgement "questionable". And I don't know what your idea of "justice" is, but having the guilty and the innocent share the same fate seems to me like an immense INjustice.

If the alternative (eternal punishment, eternal reward) is absurd, then there's no rational choice.

[SurlyPIG]

Well, it has to be infinite something. Otherwise the souls would have to die at some point, which would make God cruel.

Why is that? Why not make them finite again for a while? I would very much prefer the idea of Hindui reincarnation based on Karma than eternal misery or eternal happiness. It would make a lot more sense for one's stay in Heaven or Hell to be temporary, and then for them to be replaced into the world, perhaps in a position that's appropreate for what they did in their past lives.

Yes, people are coloured in shades of gray. And so are heaven and hell, from what I remember. Think about Dante's vision of hell, for example: Not everyone gets the same punishment. Similarly, not everyone gets the same reward in heaven.

As I understand it, no matter what degree it is, Heaven is still Heaven and Hell is still Hell. We can reasonably assume that happiness is not attainable in Hell and that misery does not exist in heaven, so there is still no leeway.

As for why the afterlife isn't dynamic, I suspect it's because our souls themselves are not dynamic. After you die, you can't change yourself like you could in life.

Doesn't that seem unfair to you? Why should a soul, who was judged on finite things it did in a finite world, be rewarded or punished eternally, with no possibility of changing, and no hope of ever getting out? Even when someone spends life in prison, they still have the escape of death. That would be like keeping someone alive forever just to spend every day in misery.

How can you expect to comprehend the thoughts of an infinite being? That's like an ant trying to understand why humans behave the way they do. If God is infinite, then there's no way for us to understand what's on His mind. No matter how much you dislike it, you have to accept that we humans DO have our limitations.

Wow. I never expected that from you. Weren't you the one who's always said we should question ALL authority? I've heard that argument before and it's very lame. Being blindly loyal to anything is essentially making yourself a tool.

For the sake of the argument, we're considering the existence of the Judeo-Christian God to be an axiom. Otherwise, this whole debate would be pointless.

That's not what's in question. The afterlife is what's in question, and Biblical references are vague and archaic at best. That's why it becomes so subjective.

[Edric O]

Acriku:

If the alternative (eternal punishment, eternal reward) is absurd, then there's no rational choice.

That's my point. ALL the options seem unjust or absurd from some point of view. Therefore, you can't blame God for choosing the one He did. After all, the others weren't any better.

Ace:

Why is that? Why not make them finite again for a while? I would very much prefer the idea of Hindui reincarnation based on Karma than eternal misery or eternal happiness. It would make a lot more sense for one's stay in Heaven or Hell to be temporary, and then for them to be replaced into the world, perhaps in a position that's appropreate for what they did in their past lives.

So, in other words, an eternity of trials and tribulations. An infinite number of lives lived on Earth. I don't see how this is any better than the other options.

As I understand it, no matter what degree it is, Heaven is still Heaven and Hell is still Hell. We can reasonably assume that happiness is not attainable in Hell and that misery does not exist in heaven, so there is still no leeway.

Correct. But an eternity of mild discomfort is not the same as an eternity of pain, and an eternity of slight happiness is not the same as an eternity of boundless joy.

Doesn't that seem unfair to you? Why should a soul, who was judged on finite things it did in a finite world, be rewarded or punished eternally, with no possibility of changing, and no hope of ever getting out? Even when someone spends life in prison, they still have the escape of death. That would be like keeping someone alive forever just to spend every day in misery.

But the alternative is to KILL the soul, or to give it an eternity of something else. Not much of an improvement, is it?

Wow. I never expected that from you. Weren't you the one who's always said we should question ALL authority? I've heard that argument before and it's very lame. Being blindly loyal to anything is essentially making yourself a tool.

All human authority, Ace. There is a difference between the authority of your peers and the authority of a being which is infinitely more intelligent than you...

And you haven't explained just why this argument is so "lame". What is wrong with it, exactly? Are you saying that a finite being CAN understand the mind of an infinite being? ::)

That's not what's in question. The afterlife is what's in question, and Biblical references are vague and archaic at best. That's why it becomes so subjective.

Fair enough... After all, the afterlife is an essentially subjective experience. (one man's reward is another man's punishment)

[SurlyPIG]

So, in other words, an eternity of trials and tribulations. An infinite number of lives lived on Earth. I don't see how this is any better than the other options.

Whether it is better is a matter of opinions. It is undisputably more fair, however, because it allows for reform, rehabilitation, escape, success, and failure.

Correct. But an eternity of mild discomfort is not the same as an eternity of pain, and an eternity of slight happiness is not the same as an eternity of boundless joy.

Nowhere in the Bible do I recall reading that any part of Hell could be described as mild discomfort, or Heaven as slight happiness. Not that it's very important in the greater scheme of things. For all any of us know you could be right.

But the alternative is to KILL the soul, or to give it an eternity of something else. Not much of an improvement, is it?

Maybe not to you. But it would be more logically appropreate.

All human authority, Ace. There is a difference between the authority of your peers and the authority of a being which is infinitely more intelligent than you...

And you haven't explained just why this argument is so "lame". What is wrong with it, exactly? Are you saying that a finite being CAN understand the mind of an infinite being? ::)

Why make that distinction? You have no idea how intelligent that being is. Though I would hope it is. In fact that's the whole reason I'm arguing. I don't think that a being intelligent enough to create the unverse, or at least to create life on our planet, would establish such illogical policies pertaining to the afterlife.

The argument is lame because it's so weak. It's essentially saying "You're too dumb to understand it so don't try just follow it without question." Come on! That kind of thinking is completely dangerous, and isn't even very relevant to the situation. With all the simplicity of the concept of the Judeo-Christian afterlife, and all the questions raised by its very nature, doesn't that indicate to you that maybe it's not the creation of any omniscient being? That's not to say that simplicity = stupidity though. It's simple, but not logically simple. To me it seems no more intelligent than what the minds of people 2000 years ago could come up with.

[Acriku]

That's my point. ALL the options seem unjust or absurd from some point of view. Therefore, you can't blame God for choosing the one He did. After all, the others weren't any better.

All the options are not absurd, and that excluded option is death. The end. Fin. Omega. It may be unjust, but it is less unjust than the alternatives. It is not, however, absurd at all.

[Sardauker-Kirov]

Some people think that Hell is actually a heaven for evil people. While heaven is hell to them and heaven is heaven to good people etc.

So maybe Hitler is leading his Nazi army in hell, while Satan applauds him and watches the neat marches of Hitler's undead/devil nazi army. ;D

I don't know what hell looks like, and I don't wanna know either.

[DjCiD]

I was under the belief that 'Hell' wasn't just specifically a place but a descriptive term that meant to be separated from God for all eternity.

[Acriku]

Can you or anyone else be more elaborate on being separate from god for all eternity? Also, elaborate how this is bad, if you may.

[DjCiD]

Not being allowed to worship Him, being kept from Gods glory. Never able to walk by His side, nor see His face. 'For all eternity' should be self-explanatory.

I can't formulate the words as to why this would be bad for others to understand. I can only tell you why I wouldn't want to be separated.

Why would you not want to be separated you ask? Maybe this song will help you understand what I think of when I think about Heaven and seeing God for the first time.

• 
  I Can Only Imagine - Words and Music by Bart Millard
  I can only imagine
  What it will be like
  When I walk
  By your side
  I can only imagine
  What my eyes will see
  When your face
  Is before me
  I can only imagine
  Surrounded by Your glory, what will my heart feel
  Will I dance for you Jesus or in awe of you be still
  Will I stand in your presence or to my knees will I fall
  Will I sing hallelujah, will I be able to speak at all
  I can only imagine
  When that day comes
  And I find myself
  Standing in the Son
  I can only imagine
  When all I will do
  Is forever
  Forever worship You
  I can only imagine
  

When my life is over and I am called home, I will no longer have the worries of the world to deal with. The race will at last be over, and I will be able to spend all my time worshiping the Father.

At times I get caught up in the world and what's going on in my personal life and don't take the time to worship and praise Him like I should. Then the thought of not being able to hurts inside ... I didn't make time on earth and in the afterlife when there is no time, I'm not allowed to.

That may sound confusing to you, I'm not sure of how to put my feelings into words. The idea of wasted time hurts, when time has wasted away.