Ten Commandments

[SurlyPIG]

This thread isn't about what I believe Caid. Nor is it about what's on your computer, unless your computer sits in front of a judicial building. It doesn't matter if you have a stuffed toy of Satan himself on your desk, it's irrelevant. This was about a monument placed by one man on public premises illegally, without purpose or approval. When you're ready to debate the topic and hand without spewing anti-secular rhetoric, you let me know.

[Acriku]

Is it too hard to understand? TORA IS THE FIRST LAW ABLE TO TOUCH A KING! Like US Constitution.

Then, what the hell is your question! ???

[TMA_1]

hmm, let me word it for you acriku.lol

he said the torah give the first laws that actually dont make the king above the law. They are subject to it as well. He asked if you understand that.

Either you really dont know english too well, or you are making fun of him for speaking english as a second language. if he poses serious questions, it isnt your right to not answer him and then make fun of him for not being apart of a country that speaks english in mass. good grief

[Acriku]

TMA, I am not making fun of him, that's just a stupid statement. I really cannot understand half of what he says, and others cannot either. I also said I understood that english was his second language, so back off and mind your business.

It doesn't entirely make all kings below the law, seeing as god is the LORD and Almighty King, and is above the law (that he made himself, making a great analogy of god to the divine kings). So, it could be argued that it simply puts everyone except for one King below the law.

[Acriku]

Well, TMA? I'm still waiting for a convincing argument that the Ten Commandments are truely a historical document. Consider this analogy used from this website:

To sneak around the First Amendment many have adopted the tactic of calling it an "historical document" and "the basis for our system of law", often trying to post it as part of a larger display with historical documents. To me, this is like trying to make a marijuana plant legally acceptable by planting daisies and gardenias around it and calling it a botanical display.

[TMA_1]

lol, every source you point out is biased. It is a skeptic's site and automatically they are out to disprove or discredit things they consider unreasonable. You also quote from athiest oriented sites.

It would be like me arguing with you and using quotes from jack chick to prove my point. of course you would laugh at me and discount my sources because they are completely subjective.

if you are going to try and credit or discredit something, do it with some class and reason. Use non biased sites that dont require you to fall to fundimentalism of the negative kind.

The ten commmandments were created thousands of years ago. They were followed by a race called the jews. They were important in keeping order and are also important in western civilization because we have had a past of being ruled by christian authorities, or supposed christian ones. such as the catholic church, the church of england and others. They used christ's example. Christ said he is the fulfillment of the law and therefore we as christians as well by logic follow the portions of the law set for all people. taking out the sabbath day and keeping it holy because that is the only commandment not mentioned to keep in the decalog.

Thus it is a historical text. It happened in history, and for good or ill, it has influenced us because the powers that be have largely labeld themselves as christians.

it really is that simple man.

[Acriku]

lol, every source you point out is biased. It is a skeptic's site and automatically they are out to disprove or discredit things they consider unreasonable. You also quote from athiest oriented sites.

It would be like me arguing with you and using quotes from jack chick to prove my point. of course you would laugh at me and discount my sources because they are completely subjective.

if you are going to try and credit or discredit something, do it with some class and reason. Use non biased sites that dont require you to fall to fundimentalism of the negative kind.'

Completely irrelevant. Instead of judging content by the provider, judge the content by the content. I would never judge something from Jack Chick, because he may have a valid point somewhere. Maybe if I'm really tired, I'd get careless, but I try to stay objective on the sources. So, now that we established that the provider is irrelevant, respond to the content.

The ten commmandments were created thousands of years ago. They were followed by a race called the jews. They were important in keeping order and are also important in western civilization because we have had a past of being ruled by christian authorities, or supposed christian ones. such as the catholic church, the church of england and others. They used christ's example. Christ said he is the fulfillment of the law and therefore we as christians as well by logic follow the portions of the law set for all people. taking out the sabbath day and keeping it holy because that is the only commandment not mentioned to keep in the decalog.

Thus it is a historical text. It happened in history, and for good or ill, it has influenced us because the powers that be have largely labeld themselves as christians.

it really is that simple man.

How are the Ten Commandments important in the Western Civilization, specifically? Saying they are, because of past examples of how bad a theocracy is, doesn't get us anywhere. Also, what powers are you referring to? No, it simply is not that simple. Man.

[TMA_1]

. I would never judge something from Jack Chick, because he may have a valid point somewhere. Maybe if I'm really tired, I'd get careless, but I try to stay objective on the sources.

dont give yourself too much credit. you arent that good at staying objective.

I explained, it is that simple man.

Western civilization became christianized a bit after constintine, but actually the two parts of rome were still pretty diverse. The real push of christianity in western civilization came with bizantium and the holy roman empire under their great king charles the great.

from then on the catholic church with the subserviant help of the nobles and rulers controlled people in the name of christ, though almost always in the wrong. I told you whether for good or for bad, we have been controlled by people of christian persuasion for hundreds of years. even during the enlightenment, christian sentiments stayed around. The great philosophers were the first to actually push towards teh secular, but often they failed and their idea of God was largely influenced by christianity. We have not yet escaped the dogma that we have been influenced by, and will never really be unless we are destroyed as western civilization, or we completely do a cultural overhull, but that is doubtful.

[Acriku]

. I would never judge something from Jack Chick, because he may have a valid point somewhere. Maybe if I'm really tired, I'd get careless, but I try to stay objective on the sources.

dont give yourself too much credit. you arent that good at staying objective.

Get over yourself, I stay true to my word. You just seem like you're avoiding the entire subject, how typical.

Western civilization became christianized a bit after constintine, but actually the two parts of rome were still pretty diverse. The real push of christianity in western civilization came with bizantium and the holy roman empire under their great king charles the great.

from then on the catholic church with the subserviant help of the nobles and rulers controlled people in the name of christ, though almost always in the wrong. I told you whether for good or for bad, we have been controlled by people of christian persuasion for hundreds of years. even during the enlightenment, christian sentiments stayed around. The great philosophers were the first to actually push towards teh secular, but often they failed and their idea of God was largely influenced by christianity. We have not yet escaped the dogma that we have been influenced by, and will never really be unless we are destroyed as western civilization, or we completely do a cultural overhull, but that is doubtful.

So, just because we have a history of Christianity, the Ten Commandments should be displayed? That's rediculous. Your arguments do not follow at all TMA.

[TMA_1]

You just seem like you're avoiding the entire subject, how typical.

lol... that was what I was accusing you of. hmmm

you said that there was no historical base for the ten commandments and you said that there is no need to have them displayed because they are not important to our heritage.

You know you dont like them because you dont like anything that smacks of religion. if jesus walked to your door and wanted to give you a hug, you would blow him away with your pistol you got at j rotc. if mohammed came by you would chop him up because you think he is a lier.

all of these things and more you evil tyrant!

ahem... I was kidding wasent I? I figure I cant take this seriously much longer. it is too silly

(by the way I really liked that jab about your odd fixture on military living.hehe)

[Caid Ivik]

TMA, I am not making fun of him, that's just a stupid statement. I really cannot understand half of what he says, and others cannot either. I also said I understood that english was his second language, so back off and mind your business.

It doesn't entirely make all kings below the law, seeing as god is the LORD and Almighty King, and is above the law (that he made himself, making a great analogy of god to the divine kings). So, it could be argued that it simply puts everyone except for one King below the law.

That's not a stupid statement, just I have doubts about reply. You have a view on God like He is one of us. I am not talking about Zeus or other humanoid deity, so don't try to make yourself to see as unable to understand if you just have NO idea how to negate the fact. But ok, if joking with TMA makes you more pleasure...

[Acriku]

Ok, so now we're not going to stick to the issues, but talk about irrelevant details?

[Caid Ivik]

I would say it is very important thing. You consider 10C as anything but historical value only for one reason: just because "it simply isn't it". When I show you a counter reason you rather ignore it for it would damage your dogmatic view...

[Acriku]

I am not denying that it is historical, in that it is part of humanity's history, and has, with the accompanying religions, made a significance in the turnout of events such as in the first millenium, that's already a given. But, does it contain legislative significance, and was it a basis for our country? I am to say no on both accounts.

[Caid Ivik]

Legislative significance? That was why Jesus so many times attacked jewish priests, they acted like a police! Tora of the ancient Hebrews is same as islamic sharia law in Iran. Basis for USA? Well, that's what I was talking about, 10C were for Jews some kind of a first constitution, showing that no earthly authority (as well as fact that NO human is "unearthly") has right to negate it. Same as constitutions of renaissanic european democracies or USA.

[Edric O]

I don't see why this has caused such a big controversy. The monument was placed illegally on public property, correct? Then it shouldn't even matter what it represents! You can't just go around placing monuments of whatever you like anywhere you like...

[SurlyPIG]

EXACTLY! And it was placed there by Moore himself, who has no right to dictate what is and what isn't placed in the premesis of the building. It would be like if one of the janitors dumped a big pile of soil somewhere in the building.

[TMA_1]

I am ashamed, I didnt even know that. good grief that was stupid of me.

[ordos45]

Leave it to Edric to point out our errors in common sense. :)

[SurlyPIG]

...I thought I had mentioned that somewhere...

[ordos45]

...I thought I had mentioned that somewhere...

You did, but we were blinded to you by the arguement, he hadn't stepped in yet. You had been there. Oh and now we have the balance of a Christian and Atheist saying the same thing.

[SurlyPIG]

I understand. Perhaps now, this topic can reach a resolution fall back to a nonvolitile place, much like the monument it is about.

[ordos45]

Hopefully, and if it can't... *eyes the lock button warily* Still, all this arguing has showcased some interesting points.

[Caid Ivik]

One thing is why was it considered as illegal. Does the city of X disapproved changing of the front part of a building (technically you can't put even bad collored window on front without permission of bureau), or because the monument itself is considered as "illegal"? If the owner of the building was permitted to place a new monument at front with specifical parametres, and if it is forbidden to use anything religious, then what is illegal on placing a historical memento?

[Acriku]

Basis for USA? Well, that's what I was talking about, 10C were for Jews some kind of a first constitution

The 10C were quite different from our constitution, as ours gives rights as well, where the 10C only gives rules. If we had our country based on the OT, children would have no rights at all. Yet another example of how our country is not a christian country.

Edric, I was under the impression that we understood this, and we were discussing the constitutionality of the ten commandments being in the building. I guess I was under the wrong impression, it seems.

And Caid, the owner of the building is not Moore, it is the government. He has no rights to the building, except to work there, and a little room for an office (which, by the way, was offered as an alternative for putting the monument somewhere). Also, the 10C is not a historial memento for America.