DUne warfare

Scrinlord · August 4, 2003

ok, thats what I thought.

Are you sure ornis were not shot down, that just seeems to ridiculus to have a vehicle that cannot be stopped...

But wouldnt the rocks in a sietch slightly muffle the shield effect from the worms?

Duncan_ghola · August 4, 2003

i think ornithopters were shot down, kevin j anderson wrote one scene in the prequels where an ornithopter was shot down by a rocket i believe, to save pardot kynes. As for the shield, i dont think worms could detect a shield if activated in a sietch, unless you have some proof from the dune novels to correct me i cant remember any mention shields being detected from a sietch, only the sand.

Scrinlord · August 4, 2003

I dont remember reading about an orni being shot down, but i dont remember a lot of things ;D

I just dont understand how you can shoot down an orni, but if you cant, then you could find ways to completely destroy an enemy without being shot down, it is unreal

Duncan_ghola · August 4, 2003

well, the harkonen pilots of the ornithopter were attempting hunt down kynes and his wife for sport, so i guess they were hovering around trying to steady it for the lasgun, that shouldve made it an easy target for the rocket or projectile, whatever was shot

Caid Ivik · August 4, 2003

How can be an ornitopther shielded? Holtzmann's shielding device stops all faster moving projectiles of size of an atom. Land warriors can use it, because they move by legs and coordinate with brain. But plane is driven by coordinating directions of air flow in high speed, and this air would be stopped by a shield. If it would be a rocket with correctional jets, it can be shielded, but an orni? It would take off, but you won't be able to ride.

Aes · August 4, 2003

How can be an ornitopther shielded? Holtzmann's shielding device stops all faster moving projectiles of size of an atom. Land warriors can use it, because they move by legs and coordinate with brain. But plane is driven by coordinating directions of air flow in high speed, and this air would be stopped by a shield. If it would be a rocket with correctional jets, it can be shielded, but an orni? It would take off, but you won't be able to ride.

That would depend on the answer on another question that has baffled me for a while: where does the kinetic energy go when something collides with the Holzmann wave field. When you see someone get hit by a fast-moving projectile or blade in the movies they don't flinch at all. Neither are anyone described (to the extent of my knowledge) as being knocked around by violent forces hitting their shields in the books.

If we assume this is not an oversight, and the energy from the collision with a holzmann field dissipates without affecting the field or the object it shields, shielding an ornithopter would be quite feasible. Assuming the shield forms a sphere around the thopter, air would be deflected downwards by the wings/engines and collide with the shield, where its movement is negated without affecting the thopter. The movement of air to the bottom of the shield sphere will create a pressurized cushion below the ship and a vacuum above it into which more air can flow for the wings to push down.

This wonderful closed system is somewhat hard for me to swallow in that it would not function under the laws of physics as we know them today. (I'm not going to exclude the possibility that a Tio Holzmann pops along and tells me everything I have taken for fact is wrong). It's mostly speculation based on the fact that I've never observed the forces that collide with a holzmann wave field invoke any form of inertia or kinetic energy upon the object the wave field shields. My previously described model should be physically impossible if not for that single observation, in that the force of the air being pushed downward by thr 'thopter and the force of the air colliding with the wave field ought to negate one another.

An alternate solution, depending on the specifics of the holzmann field would be loosening the masks in the net of waves (possibly by modulating amplitude or frequency -- it's a bit tricky to know with undiscovered technology that defies physics ;]) to allow for objects the size of whatever gasses your planets atmosphere consists of. This would still give you immunity to various forms of projectile weapons while allowing air to pass unhindered through your shielding providing you with lift.

Scrinlord · August 4, 2003

but shields dont make an actual sphere around the shield generator, do they? I thought that the shields were form fitting. This would mean that while the orni was shielded, the shield itelsf would act as the wings, because it was surrounding the wings, just a few inches away from the wing surface.

Aes · August 4, 2003

A good point. I just picked a sphere as it was a nice geometric shape to play with physics in. Form-fitting shields could work to some extent, though it would depend on just how form-fitting they were. For example, the Lynch filmatization had the shields appear as big (if somewhat form-fitting) boxes around the wearers. If that's what is meant by form-fitting, the ornithopter would be roughly as aerodynamic as a shoebox made out of lead. The problem still remains however, as to wether forces applied to the shield can affect the thing that projects it. The 'thopter needs to produce some sort of force downwards to generate lift, and if said force collides with the shield, the force of the collision ought to nullify the force generating lift.

Again, the holtzmann shield is a tricky thing to apply physics to, as it doesn't really conform to known physics. After all, how does the shield determine the form to fit? If I pick up a large metal rod, how will the shield determine wether to fit around the rod or just my hand? How will the shield tell the difference between a physical object (a bunch of atoms) and air (a bunch of atoms) when determining its shape and size?

Duncan_ghola · August 4, 2003

wouldnt a shield alter some of the ornithopters functions besides flying?

Scrinlord · August 5, 2003

It would alter its ability to fire many weapons(rockets, missiles, cannons, and lasguns would all be restricted) but it could drop dumb-bombs. The shield might also restrict radar and such, but I dont know.

And I was thinking formfitting as depicted in the Sci-Fi mini, it was really close forming.

Duncan_ghola · August 5, 2003

yes, i meant radar functions and such... maybe reading altitude but i dont know, I think it was close forming, from what i can tell during pauls training with gurney in the first chapters of the first dune novel, i think there was mention of pauls weapon being slowly deflected from him as he turned on his shield, if it were a sphere... i think it would be impossible to hold a weapon, even if it were close forming how would it be possible to hold a weapon? wouldnt it be deflected slowly? and if the shield did engulf the blade, how would you be able to use blade effectively if its covered in a protective shield, and if the blade breaks through from the inside, wouldnt that leave you vulnerable, since your whole shield or a very large portion of it, from what ive read, be deactivated?

Caid Ivik · August 5, 2003

Objects hitting the shield don't lose kinetic energy, they continue way alongside shield's surface. Waves are just changing vector. Like when fighter attacks with sword too quickly, blade runs like on ice. It is repelling with no friction. I would say, it causes state of ideal aerodynamics, what makes it impossible even to take off :O

Scrinlord · August 6, 2003

in the prequels, things just stop moving when they hit the shield. they dont go around or bounce off, just stop.

Duncan_ghola · August 6, 2003

i guess the shield absorbs the energy somehow becoming ozone?

Caid Ivik · August 6, 2003

Somewhere in original books is that skating a result of too fast dagger attack. I'm not sure where it was.

Scrinlord · August 7, 2003

I dont know.

Caid Ivik · August 7, 2003

OK, now I have in mind a more interesting thing. Excluding sandworms, is there any mention of a cavalry? You know, a horse or something like it. If it will be shielded, it would be a hard target for a swordmaster to bring down a mounted warrior with lance. Light materials can make a lance so easy to handle, that it might even penetrate shield.

Scrinlord · August 7, 2003

problem is, when you are on a horse you are most likely running, wich makes it hard to make your weapon go slower.

Caid Ivik · August 8, 2003

OK, charge won't be possible, but why should I go close to my target, when I can strike him with a lance from above?

Duncan_ghola · August 8, 2003

comon... a horse? why not just use a suspensor if your guna attack from above..

Scrinlord · August 8, 2003

suspenser, horse, samething! ::)

My resoning for this would be that it is to hard to control a lance effectivly against shielded targets, and if you have a lance, and someone gets past your guard(which is not all that hard to do), you are screwed.

Caid Ivik · August 9, 2003

Don't forget the time. 20 millenias in future. They would have other materials than in middle ages, so the lance can be lighter. Horse or some suspensor gives only mobility, altough there is other possibility: deep phalanx of shielded pikemen!

http://www.yourname.co.nz/wwebz/swiss3.jpg

Scrinlord · August 10, 2003

lol, very nice.

Ya, lances could be made lighter, but so could swords and armor and everything else as well.

Duncan_ghola · August 11, 2003

yes, i meant radar functions and such... maybe reading altitude but i dont know, I think it was close forming, from what i can tell during pauls training with gurney in the first chapters of the first dune novel, i think there was mention of pauls weapon being slowly deflected from him as he turned on his shield, if it were a sphere... i think it would be impossible to hold a weapon, even if it were close forming how would it be possible to hold a weapon? wouldnt it be deflected slowly? and if the shield did engulf the blade, how would you be able to use blade effectively if its covered in a protective shield, and if the blade breaks through from the inside, wouldnt that leave you vulnerable, since your whole shield or a very large portion of it, from what ive read, be deactivated?

what about this ^^^ how would you even be able to hold a lance or a sword

Caid Ivik · August 12, 2003

lol, very nice.
Ya, lances could be made lighter, but so could swords and armor and everything else as well.

Yes, of course, otherwise it would be also hard to fight against shields. Lances and pikes have the advantage of length...

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