Mediaevalism

[Tio_Holtzmann]

When I was discussing Dune with my Dad, we were only able to partly explain why things in Dune were so... well... mediaeval. We agreed that shields had reduced weaponry to projectiles and bladed weapons, and that the banning of computers led to a certain amount of regression, and that fiefs were the only possible goverment for long distances, but why coats of arms and duke and baron etc. Do people think it's a bit unnecessary?

[Dante]

I'm not entirely sure why... Other than that it makes for a 'stable' political system... But then again, why not? It has been used many times before in history, why not again?

It's a great system either way...

[Egeides]

Well apparently a few succeeded into getting very rich and powerful. From the moment they are powerful enough, they are able to impose their reign. From there, they slowly bring hierarchy to be rigid. Exactly as it happened in the Middle Ages from the Roman times. A total disorganization came after the Romans, which let the powerful take an important place since they were the only way the people had to protect themselves (it's chaos around, thus lot of danger, thus people ready to accept anything for protection). Well the Butlerian Jihad is a bit of a shock bringing everything to change and everyone is ready to accept certain things to protect themselves of robots and so on.

Dust Scout: What did you meant when you said "It was a great system anyway"?

[TMA_1]

I always thought it was because of expansion after terra. THe vast expansion sent people back politiclaly and economically. So much open territory and so little government influence leads to a lot of feudelism so that the emperor doesnt have to micro manage. They are practically kingdoms in themselves. there is a lot of vigilanteism. It is similar to the western expansion of america. for about 20 years, many towns in the west had to resort to vigilante justice and practical un american rule. That is my opinion on the manner anyway. the vastness of space made it almost impossible to unify into any sort of democratic or purly monarchial sort of rule. it began to unify though with landsraad acting like the house of lords. still though there was a lot of freedom in each house, and like I said they practically ruled themselves. just as long as they didnt effect or threaten the empire.

[Vanguard3000]

I agree with TMA, largely.

I think a very important factor is the geopolitical aspect of things. namely, the "Friction of Distance," as my former history/geography teacher put it. As the empire expanded, communication became slower and less efficient. The only practical way to convey a message from one planet to the other is via courier. In effect, the empire's reach had surpassed its grasp.

As with medieval Europe, the entire universe could not be governed centrally, so a heirarchical government evolved. The Emperor would rule the universe through lesser rulers, such as barons, dukes, viscounts, and so on.

I think this has the interesting effect of the universe having the appearance of an autonamous rule, when in fact that ruler has very little power over the nobility.

As a side note, I always imagined the Duniverse as having a number of different forms of government, and the Emperor controlled/taxed those governments. Although the majority of the planets were ruled by rich nobles, I can imagine some planets having different forms of governments (i.e. democracy) based on the evolution of that individual planet. The Emperor wouldn't really care how a planet would be run (surely one cannot view the Atreides rule and the Harkonnen rule as being the same - compare the laws and policies of the different Houses, as well as the geography/commodities of the two homeworlds), as long as he was given tribute by the leader of that planet.

[Egeides]

But what do you think brang the society to come to a ruler type of government from a parlement/voting system?

[TMA_1]

thats really neat vanguard because I always thought the same concerning different forms of rule between each house.

Because they largly had to rule themselves, they came up with a form of local (local meaning planetary, figuring its a universal empire. kinda silly sounding.lol) rule based on the houses individual standards and morals it was founded upon. Some houses might be technocratic just say, because they might be an economic powerhouse, and the political and the economic might play hand in hand. You might have another house that governs itself based upon minor liege lords. The house family would give power to distant relations to take care of feif all over the planet. They would control as a microcosm of the feudel state of the universal empire. You might have some houses that ruled with the many. So that an oligarchial system would be used where a house family might create it's own councel to decide what is best as equals. You might even have houses that rule in democratic/republic fashions. I hope I made sense, if not please comment.

That is a really good point vanguard, I havent heard it brought up before, but I have thought the same. cool cool. :)

[Tio_Holtzmann]

I don't think I put my question very clearly, sorry...

It's not the forms of goverment my dad has a problem with, he understood the feudalism, the weaponry etc. He just felt that coats of arms, duke, baron, castle etc. was a bit surplus to requirements. Tis the heraldry (whats the word i forgot before) that he can't understand.

[TMA_1]

sometimes in instances, we take the wisdom of the past to help us. Especially with the rise of family power. How else can you recognize family power without a crest? it is just the most obvious way to do that. Because of the vastness of space, the closest people yo could trust would be distant and close relatives. these relatives were given power for themselves, and ech of them given a designation, a crest to identify themslves. it just seems logical to me.

[Tio_Holtzmann]

Spose tis just like a company logo when you think about it. But what about the old formal titles?

[TMA_1]

eremember though over the thousands of years, these houses that actually survived kept to their banners. kept to their grand tradition and their codes of honor. These became the foundation of who they were. they became their own people. These banners werent just signals of their planet and their family. they became symbols of who they are. not just for the royal family, but for all. Even the lowliest surf took pride in his or her house banner if the house was good to it's people.

[Tio_Holtzmann]

Yeah, and about castles etc, I'm in France at the mo and I've seen so many castles that were just as much built for fun as for defence, some never even attacked. So we've already had frivolous artisanship in our existence!

I mentioned this to my Dad and he kinda went ape on me saying there was no point in Gurney playing a lute (which it isn't) and playing a song called a lay (old mediaeval song). He's funny sometimes.

[TMA_1]

hehe want to hear baliset music? look for chris chapman online and look for the "chapman stick" as well. there are many musicians who use it. now your probably asking what this thing is. Well it is from lynch's version of Dune. The baliset used was actually a real instrument and that song you heard him play was actually done with a chapman stick by it's creator, chris chapman. thought it is kinda neat.

I have saved up a lot for it, almost there! its over a thousand dollars though, yikes !