The other side of the coin: Athiesm

[TMA_1]

Nah nema, I dont mean all athiests. Some just prefer to take the idea that the probability is there is no God. Some though deny completely all evidance. This is what I am getting at. There are some atheists who shut off to their own thoughts, but at the same time call christians closed minded and ignorant. Not all atheists of course. hope that clears thinggs up, sorry bout that. :)

[Acriku]

Granted Gob that I do not read the bible, but I assume those quotes are for real and not made up - and if they are, and I post them, you could kindly tell me. With the bible quotes, I do not put a heavily basis on them as my argument unless it is the argument. I have read part of the Torah (although it's sketchy because I could only translate a few words), and read pages of biblical quotes from different books contradicting eachother, and flat-out saying two different things on the same person/thing. But I have not taken a Bible and read it. Perhaps when I have time after college I can go into study of it, and find things out for myself about it but until then I have the websites and you guys to clarify the validity of those biblical quotes.

But any other argument I have either thought of myself, or branched from another, or read on a website and pondered about it for a few days, and more if it is that provoking. Then, I formulate my own conclusion. I find arguments from atheists that are immature, or just faulty, so I do not use them, but I have found many arguments that are logically sound and correct to me, after days of pondering about them, and form my conclusions.

that isnt the point though Ace. I set that up as a defense against calling people that follow faith systems as closed minded. you too are as well.

Atheism is NOT a faith or belief system. Get that out of your head. It's wrong.

There is no real atheist. Everyone believes in some sense of his or her existence and that is his religion. Difference between religions is just form of the highest sense. For some it is natural force, for other human mind and for other some higher being. You aren't fully true, TMA. Only real atheist were Nietzsche, who gone crazy from it, and his nihilist followers. But all were trying to seek something against God, what is also a proof of His existence. You can fight against windmill - but against a phantom?

What is a real atheist? It wouldn't be the dictionary definition of an atheist, because certainly there are those. It would have to be your own clouded definition of atheism, which I cannot accept. Seeking something against God is not proof for his existence, that is non sequitor. I can spend my life proving fairies if the belief of fairies were so widespread, but that does not make fairies real.

Nah nema, I dont mean all athiests. Some just prefer to take the idea that the probability is there is no God. Some though deny completely all evidance. This is what I am getting at. There are some atheists who shut off to their own thoughts, but at the same time call christians closed minded and ignorant. Not all atheists of course. hope that clears thinggs up, sorry bout that

You don't mean all atheists, which you didn't say before because you hold something against atheism. Only a small majority are gnostic atheists.

Denying all evidence and accepting that there is a probability of no god are two different subjects. Not to be used in the same group as opposite. You don't have the reason they deny all of the evidence, so you are wrong when you say they shut off their thoughts. They could have examined each and every piece of evidence and found that they are bogus or non-conclusive. You don't know. There is no evidence for god, because if god did leave evidence then he would destroy faith - that is required without any evidence - and as he said, without faith he is not him. So, assuming he is omnipotent, there is no evidence whatsoever. Isn't that hard to figure out.

[TMA_1]

there isnt evidance that says there isnt a god though. it is impossible to disprove the supernatural since it has been claimed by billions but has never been directly tested. You are twisting stuff man. Even at the beginning you failed in your attempt to jusify not studying the opposite paradigm (the biblei n this case). You cover it up by trusting other bias people in their interpritation of the bible, which is going to be twisted because of their views. Notice that I have stopped with the evolution stuff. I cant disprove it. I disagree with it but I dont try to prove your views wrong in that way. I just say to cool it man. You have gone red when you were once blue. You have turned extremely hostle and cover it up with "fun argument". You express the fact that if the whole forum was full of buddhists that you would debate them, well at the same point you proclaim that many buddhists are spiritual atheists and defend them. You take sides and reject them. You do one thing and say another. I personally see strife in your words. Whether or not it is true, it takes a lot for me to be that concerned about somebody I know decently well to have completely changed. You are a straw that blows in the wind. You will take any side that disagrees with the jewish God. That itself is a perfect model of bias. It shows you have an agenda. its just plain silly joe.

[SurlyPIG]

that isnt the point though Ace. I set that up as a defense against calling people that follow faith systems as closed minded. you too are as well.

No more so than you are, TMA. In fact, less. Atheism is a minor part of my life. Calling it a part is actually being rather generous. Can you say the same thing about your Christianity?

As you said yourself, you cannot prove either way. For some reason, you choose to believe 100%. That's fine with me, but let's try a little exercise for a while...Try not to take offense to this.

I am God. You cannot prove I am not, nor that I am. Seeing as how you completely acknowledged me before with no proof either way, now that I am here, acknowledge me as your God. Refer to me only as God. Do not question my word.

[sneezer3]

As you said yourself, you cannot prove either way. For some reason, you choose to believe 100%. That's fine with me, but let's try a little exercise for a while...Try not to take offense to this.

I am God. You cannot prove I am not, nor that I am. Seeing as how you completely acknowledged me before with no proof either way, now that I am here, acknowledge me as your God. Refer to me only as God. Do not question my word.

yes but there is evidence for Creation and God and there is no evidence for you, There isn't even evidence your a humen being for all i know- your a computer progeramed to respond.(no offence)

[TMA_1]

God has the special attribute of being capable to be unseen. You would be suprised how strong a connection you can have with the Lord. "The mysteries of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man."

[emprworm]

there is no such thing as an open minded human being. i believe this. everyone has a bias and antagnostic view towards at least one or more philosophy that they refuse to consider. theists and atheists alike. but i don't think that is necessarily a bad thing.

those who proclaim to have an open mind are actually deceiving themselves.

[TMA_1]

very true empr, I am just saying compared to ultra dogmatic people.

[emprworm]

yea, and even those who claim no "dogma" are still fully dogmatic in their philosophies. It's just that their philosophies may be fully self-constructed, but dogmatic nontheless. (yes, I am saying that atheists are dogmatic! ;) )

[SurlyPIG]

yes but there is evidence for Creation and God and there is no evidence for you, There isn't even evidence your a humen being for all i know- your a computer progeramed to respond.(no offence)

No offence taken. What evidence is there for God and creation, really, that cannot be attributed to something else? The bible certainly can not be taken as evidence, you are aware of this, right? It does not have any scientific value because the 'information' contained within cannot be re-experimented and proven.

[ken124578]

yes but there is evidence for Creation and God

Mind sharing it to all of us?

[emprworm]

yes but there is evidence for Creation and God

Mind sharing it to all of us?

you exist

[Acriku]

That's so-called evidence after you believe in God, but if you start with nothing, and know you exist, you don't necessarily arrive at the conclusion for it to be evidence of a god.

[emprworm]

That's so-called evidence after you believe in God, but if you start with nothing, and know you exist, you don't necessarily arrive at the conclusion for it to be evidence of a god.

loL! nice faith there, Acriku. according to science:

if you start with nothing, there will only be nothing.

from nothing, nothing comes.

[Acriku]

If you start with no position, and you gather all of the evidence, you can formulate a conclusion based on the evidence. But if you start with a position and find evidence that helps it, then you shape things to fit your position.

For example, I start with the position that Nostradamus' quatrains are entirely correct. Then, I start finding anything that remotely is related to what he prophecized, and then classify it as evidence. Whereas if you start with an unbias towards the quatrains, and you find something that is so vaguely similar to what he prophecized, then you can formulate that it the quatrains are so vague that anything can fit into them.

[emprworm]

"If you start with no position, "

utterly impossible. No human being does this, let alone a scientist.

everything you see is filtered by your world view. You especially.

or am I supposed to start digging up all those broad, sweeping irrational dismissals of theistic scientists that you have spoken about several times on this forum?

[TMA_1]

very true empr.

[SurlyPIG]

It is possible, emprworm. Otherwise the entire world would be theist or even a part of a single religion. It's possible to take another position or even none at all, to take a step back and to doubt things. If people couldn't do that then everyone would be the same religion as their parents, nobody would ever convert or abandon their beliefs.

[Acriku]

I meant with no bias. Scientists do this all the time. Their hypothesis is not so deeply embedded within them that they cannot detach from it and start with no bias. But, sometimes interpretation of the evidence cannot not be biased, so that is why they have heated debates on the theories all the time.

[TMA_1]

though there is a log of logic in what you said ace and makes a bunch of sense, I tend to have a different point of view towards human nature. I think that people inharently look for independance. That is why people abandon things. in your hypothetical case, religion.

[emprworm]

It is possible, emprworm. Otherwise the entire world would be theist or even a part of a single religion. It's possible to take another position or even none at all, to take a step back and to doubt things. If people couldn't do that then everyone would be the same religion as their parents, nobody would ever convert or abandon their beliefs.

it is not possible to start with nothing. only a baby can start with nothing. you and I cannot. you have a world view. and what you perceive is filtered by it. this is not to say we cannot consider other views, but it is certainly not starting from nothing.

[Acriku]

emprworm, you can start with no position towards the specific subject at hand.

[SurlyPIG]

So you think people (mostly) abandon religion for independance? From whom? Their parents, society...?

That doesn't apply to me, that's for sure. I never really was religious...my parents are atheist (I think), most of my friends are atheist...I havn't abandoned it, but it was never really taught to me anyway...

...people do a lot of wierd things for a lot of wierd reasons...let's leave it at that...

[TMA_1]

lol sounds like independance to me, but I see where you come from with that. :)

[emprworm]

emprworm, you can start with no position towards the specific subject at hand.

oh really? so lets go over this:

I post a link showing scientific evidence for polystrate fossils.

you go to talk.origins to find the atheist rebuttal.

ya, sounds like you are starting from nothing!!