God and animals...

[Acriku]

Ok, I think I figured out my problem. When assuming God exists, I put faith into the equation. Well for this, faith shouldn't have been here. Sorry for this misunderstanding, now I will set my mode of thinking to that without faith... And by the way, don't stray from any points of mine because it doesn't follow the "subject," it gives me the impression you won't reply to it because you can't. I think you can, so this is a bad impression.

[emprworm]

in the past, I would entertain your questions that strayed from the point. I realized that this often leaves me in a state of disarray as 20 posts later, the original point was lost, thus I am going to make deliberate efforts to prevent that from happening. SO long as your "side points" are harminous and parrallel to the main point, I see no problem.

and yes, you do not need to have faith in any such premise. We are only granting it for the sake of argument. so please, continue then: what logic are you using to declare God a sadist? Is it simply because He takes human life?

[Acriku]

You can make one sentence commenting on something in the post that isn't strictly to the subject. Even then, we can dedicate one section of our posts to the offtopics, and the main parts to the topics.

Ok god exists. I am in that mode of thinking. God exists. He is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent. You most likely agree with this.

Omnipotence - God is all powerful. His power is limitless. He is not bound by anything, with which would limit his power, making him not omnipotent. So, he could have created human beings with free will that will also not sin. He could have preprogrammed us to be total devoted to him and never even think of sinning. But, he let us fall by his own doings.

Omniscience - God knows all. He knew that the snake would persuade Eve, he knew that Eve would take the bite, and give it to Adam. He knew that the serpent was Lucifer, and he let him in. If he did not know any of this, then he is not omniscient. He knew before he created Adam that humanity would fall to evil, because of the serpent. He let it happen. And then he punishes all humanity because of what he knew was going to happen already. He knew humanity would become very evil, but he made them and then killed them because they were so evil - even when he knew that they were going to turn evil but did nothing to stop them.

God himself created evil. Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create the darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.. He is the first cause of evil, and why did he make it? For humanity to fall. He could have omitted evil, and all would have been well.

God created that serpent, and I assume the angels - unless they are gods as well. He knew Lucifer would rebel, go into the serpent and persuade Eve. He even punishes the helpless snake, for Satan's doings.

God destroyed entire cities with his might, I believe it was Sodom? Or some other city.

Again, if he didn't know any of this would have happened, then he isn't omniscient. If he wanted to change it, but he couldn't, then he isn't omnipotent. If he didn't want to change it, because in fact he didn't, he is sadistic and evil. Perhaps sadistic is an exaggeration, since that requires an emotion that requires space and time, and he is outside of both space and time. But he is evil.

[emprworm]

i agree that God is omnipotent and all of your definitions, however God is a logical being as well, so the definitions of those terms must agree to logic.

ok, now lets look at your argument:

can we summarize it as follows?

God is all powerful

God is all good

If God is all good, he would want there to be no evil

If God is all powerful he would be able to eliminate evil

Yet evil exists,

therefore God is either not all good, not all powerful, or both.

Does this sum up your argument pretty nicely, Acriku?

[Acriku]

If God is bound by logic of what he can do and what he cannot do, then he is no omnipotent. Omnipotent means ALL powerful, if we put a limit to that power it becomes mute. God becomes a being with enormous power, but not all power.

No it doesn't sum up my argument, because you are leaving out key points I am discussing. But it makes relatively the general point I was getting towards.

[Caid Ivik]

How pathetic heresy. First, this words were pointed to Kyros, to show His might to him, to show the He is the Only One as in previous verse you cut from context. Also there was no word about creation of evil but just He agrees with its existence (translate "dopustam nestastie" from slovak is very hard, because there are no real synonyms in english). But that's true - He created evil by creating free will. But you are trying to roll this over. We create the evil still and still and hurt Him by it, what primarily hurts us. Without free will, His plan would be never completed. He don't need to predict our evil, we aren't able to hurt Him fatally, but sometimes He intervene, when it is too big. Also He is over time, all acts are for Him like one moment. Sometimes you must see a difference between justice and terror. About the Flood or Sodoma catastrophe, it was a cleansing of huge evil concentration, which ended by agreements with Jews, which had received the Law, Ten Commandments, in exchange for God's tolerance in next moral degradation. From then, he just uses some chosen humans to make his will.

He is omnipotent. But He also wants us to make the world clean of evil. Otherwise it would be no...fun for Him. If we'll do so, knows only Him.

[emprworm]

If God is bound by logic of what he can do and what he cannot do, then he is no omnipotent. Omnipotent means ALL powerful, if we put a limit to that power it becomes mute. God becomes a being with enormous power, but not all power.

No it doesn't sum up my argument, because you are leaving out key points I am discussing. But it makes relatively the general point I was getting towards.

lol, Acriku, not this again? ::) haven't we been through this? Of course God is a logical being. A logical being is superior to an illogical one. An illogical being can't exist, duh. If you define God's attributes as illogical, then now we have a being that cannot possibly exist. if you want to argue this, then bring up this thread

http://www.dune2k.com/forum/?board=2;action=display;threadid=8166;start=0

you know its really sad that I post a very clear consise argument on this atheist irational propoganda saying "If God is bound by logic of what he can do and what he cannot do, then he is no omnipotent" and what is your response to it?

Or they don't care. Or it has not one iota of worth to reply to? Dunno.

So, here you are, not even replying to my refutation of that notion except a cop out post, and now you think you can wait 2 months and then slip the exact same false proposition into a new thread? lol, acriku. Why do you I bother? You re-iterate the same old re-hash that has been summarily refuted. Now, if you want to continue arguing this irrational dead horse that has been run over by logic, then you click right back to that thread and you post your refutation.

If you define God with illogical attributes, you and I are not talking about the same God. Your God cannot possibly exist, but mine can. And the Bible, btw, defines God with logical attributes. So I'm not sure what deity you are talking about, but whatever it is, it is not the Biblical God, and it is an inferior being, since it only exists in concept and cannot possibly exist in reality.

[Acriku]

Am I seeing double, no, triple, no, quadruple?! Empr, don't make it so obvious you want higher post counts :D

This may take a while sorting out lol...

lol, Acriku, not this again? haven't we been through this? Of course God is a logical being. A logical being is superior to an illogical one. An illogical being can't exist, duh. If you define God's attributes as illogical, then now we have a being that cannot possibly exist. if you want to argue this, then bring up this thread

Empr, omnipotence is all powerful - no exceptions! This is not the atheist definition, this is the definition. You can't be limited in power by logic and still be omnipotent. You will be saying "Within the parameters of logic, he is omnipotent." But that isn't omnipotence anymore.

you know its really sad that I post a very clear consise argument on this atheist irational propoganda saying "If God is bound by logic of what he can do and what he cannot do, then he is no omnipotent" and what is your response to it?

Trying not to get irritated, empr I said that which you quoted in response to tma's post asking why doesn't everybody post in that thread. Nema agreed with it he said, but depends on what you apply it to. If this is wrong so far, tell me.

So, here you are, not even replying to my refutation of that notion except a cop out post, and now you think you can wait 2 months and then slip the exact same false proposition into a new thread? lol, acriku. Why do you I bother? You re-iterate the same old re-hash that has been summarily refuted. Now, if you want to continue arguing this irrational dead horse that has been run over by logic, then you click right back to that thread and you post your refutation cuz that is really annoying when you ignore completely something refuted, and then post the exact same thing that was refuted again in another thread.

I didn't bother replying to try to refute it because we went over the exact same thing in private messaging, perhaps you forget? Or are you deliberately lying to make me look bad? And about that thread, how do you define inferior?

From that thread as well,

The Bible never uses any such term to describe God.

It says he is infinite, being infinite draws the definition of omnipotence.

From that thread as well,

If yes, then God is an illogical, contradictory being that cannot exist. If he could, then he was obviously never infinite to begin with since his existence was ultimately limited, making the entire question a logical fallacy.

It's also possible that the very idea of infinity has never made sense, and is illogical in itself.

From that thread as well,

The Bible defines God's omnipotence as something that can actually exist- namely God can perform any task that is a logical one.

The Bible has no such definition of omnipotence, not even found in it. And also, never mentions any logic.

From that thread as well,

Existence is superior to non-existence

How did you get that?

From that thread as well,

Of these two definitions of God.

2. God is all powerful, meaning He can do anything in agreement with His nature, but nothing contrary to His nature.

Only defintion #2 is logially consistent and can actually exist, while #1 cannot possibly exist.

#2 contradicts itself, to be all powerful is to have no constraints in power.

So really, there was no reason to reply to it, because all it is is claiming that the allpowerful definition is a definition of the atheists, and not held by many christians, and is not the one implied in the bible. With no proof. You say your definition is superior because it is logical, but that doesn't follow.

Now back ontopic...

If you define God with illogical attributes, you and I are not talking about the same God. Your God cannot possibly exist, but mine can. And the Bible, btw, defines God with logical attributes. So I'm not sure what deity you are talking about, but whatever it is, it is not the Biblical God, and it is an inferior being, since it only exists in concept and cannot possibly exist in reality.

The attributes attributed to god might have been illogical all along, the idea of omnipotence and omniscience are illogical ideas.

and what key points were those? If it doesn't sum up your argument, then I'm not going to talk about it. Is then your argument summarized by saying:

God hates evil

God created evil

therefore God is a sadist

If that doesn't sum it up, then how about you summing it up for me?

I am not going to sum it up, because that would include no explanations, and then you will just post a reply against the summary without the explanations. Reply to my original post without the summary, as I do to yours.

Now for caid...Kinda buried in empr's repeating posts ;)

The bottom line is he created evil, and he could have very well created free will without evil, since he is omnipotent.

[ken124578]

God hates evil

God created evil

therefore God is a sadist

Hmm... perhaps god created 'evil' to let people know what is 'good', yes i know that i don't have a very good english vocabulary-grammar.