Babies going to hell...

[Acriku]

Atheists make up an atheist culture, so if atheists aren't bad, how could the culture be? There would have to be bad atheists making up the majority, and that is not what I see anywhere.

[emprworm]

Morality is subjective because people have different morals. There is no universal morality.

anyone here notice acriku's obvious contradiction and irrational claim here?

hint: he's making a universal statement regarding morality

[TMA_1]

that is why it would create chaos acriku.lol geesh

you dont know who is bad and who isnt. And those who have "bad" morals would continue doing them without any problems. if you did punish them, you would break in half your own statements. so hypocritical. you are too blind to see it too.lol

[emprworm]

<sarcasm>

YOU IRRATIONAL XIANS!!

THERE ARE NO UNIVERSAL MORALS! AND THIS IS A UNIVERSAL TRUTH! DEAL WITH IT XIANS!!

</sarcasm>

lol!! :D ::)

[Acriku]

emprworm, I am making a universal statement, even if it is regarding morality it doesn't mean I am making a universal morality? Or did I just miss your point totally?

Based on my morals I would know, and based on yours you would know, and so on. The only reason to punish someone who has bad morals is if it breaks the law. Why would I punish someone? I'm not the law ::)

[emprworm]

emprworm, I am making a universal statement, even if it is regarding morality it doesn't mean I am making a universal morality? Or did I just miss your point totally?

Based on my morals I would know, and based on yours you would know, and so on. The only reason to punish someone who has bad morals is if it breaks the law. Why would I punish someone? I'm not the law ::)

of course you are making a universal morality. you are making a claim about right and wrong, and making it apply to everyone (universally). you cant squirm your way out of this amazing, gigantic, glaring bright-as-the-sun contradiction.

you are pinned.

[Acriku]

What good/evil standard is in "There is no universal morality."? None, because that isn't morality. But hey if you say I am pinned, I guess I am pinned. Help! Help! I am pinned!

[emprworm]

no, you pinned yourself.

"THERE ARE NO UNIVERSAL MORALS!" (your words, not mine).

that is a claim about morality. and it is a universal one.

you contradict yourself.

therefore, your claim MUST be wrong. guaranteed.

[Acriku]

First off, if you are going to quote me, do not add in your own caps and punctuation. A statement about morality is not morality. But if it is, explain to me so I can understand your point.

[TMA_1]

I am talking about the legal system. your subjective ideas lead to chaos because you allow whatever a person believes or wants and that gives no general foundation for a people. you keep bringing things up like somehow people will make the best decisions for themselves, or somehow it would be great. Or maybe that legal systems would take care of it. Legal systems are a direct attack on subjective morals and standards. it is a complete paradox. political leaders who are subjective in their thinking would change the laws in order to satisfy what the people want and what they feel is right. Your idea of subjective moral standards is for the idea of complete individualism. that is why subjective morals is subjective. No group or people matter. individuals choose what they believe is right. Know what complete individualism is?

anarchy

[emprworm]

because you are applying a definition to right and wrong. that is a moral claim.

and your statement is universal in scope, making it a universal moral claim.

but a contradictory one.

[Acriku]

political leaders who are subjective in their thinking would change the laws in order to satisfy what the people want and what they feel is right.

That is exactly what happens in America.

You are distorting my words. I did not say that a person should have their own morality. I said people develop their morality based on 1) society, 2) outside influence (peers, parents), 3) moral development along with conscious development, probably more. People as kids might think it is ok to steal that cookie on the counter of the store. But their parents would tell them "No, that is not right to do so young man!" and thus the child's morality is shaped yet again.

[TMA_1]

but why shape it if morality is subjective?

[emprworm]

atheist morality could not have possibly ended slavery.

theism ended the slave trade.

atheism is a utterly weak philosophy, with no power whatsoever to end societial oppression.

[Acriku]

But the moral system the parent uses is his/her own, so she passes it onto her children so they can develop a similar moral system. This is also included that the laws of the society shape morality as well.

emprworm, there is no atheist morality. There is morality of each and every atheist, but not a general one. So you can't possibly say that atheist morality could not have ended slavery. Theism is exactly what started slavery in America in the first place. Remember, theism holds no moral system such as christians hold, it is only the belief in a god(s).

[emprworm]

"emprworm, there is no atheist morality. There is morality of each and every atheist, but not a general one. So you can't possibly say that atheist morality could not have ended slavery."

but there is an atheist morality. you have already stated it:

"There are no universal morals". This is a philosophy of morality.

and this philosophy is weak, and utterly powerless to end oppression.

[Acriku]

That is not a morality emprworm, that is not something that distinguishes between right and wrong, unless you distort it like you always do. If there is a universal morality, then what is it? And prove that it is universal, and explain why many do not have this universal morality.

[emprworm]

That is not a morality emprworm, that is not something that distinguishes between right and wrong, unless you distort it like you always do. If there is a universal morality, then what is it? And prove that it is universal, and explain why many do not have this universal morality.

it is a morality. Just like me saying that "Right and wrong are aboslutes". That is a moral philosophy.

lol, i just cannot believe you are trying to get out of this.

No matter what you say, it is a philosophy of morality. And it is an atheist one as well.

THE ATHEIST PHILOSOPHY OF MORALITY IS INCAPABLE OF ENDING THE SLAVE TRADE, OR ANY SYSTEMATIC SOCIETAL OPPRESSION.

[TMA_1]

one example "murder is sin". Another amazing insight I got from Dune actually is "thou shalt not disfigure the soul". Both of these are looked upon as taboo. No matter how many people are killed in cultures, it is always looked upon as taboo.

About the second one I noted. It is always looked upon as evil to alter yourself personally or spiritually to destructive forces. It is basically sin to taint anything sacred.

[Acriku]

In order to not keep going in circles, I will reply to the last sentence in your post emprworm. You should not say the atheist morality, because that means that there is only one and that is it. You should say an atheist morality (assuming it is for the sake of the argument), which means that it is one of others, and then you should state what that it is for clarification.

That doesn't mean it is universal. If there is one person that does not think murder is bad, then it isn't universal.

[TMA_1]

huh? that is stretching it bigtime.lol good grief

you also just proved my point that your idea of morality is chaotic and should be extremely questionable. kinda scary man.

[Caid Ivik]

That doesn't mean it is universal. If there is one person that does not think murder is bad, then it isn't universal.

That's called a deviation. Or a sinful one. But same is for laws, I can say that i.e. corporation tunneling isn't bad, but that law is over me still, and I am responsible in acts braking them. Just laws were put by state and morale by God. Who is rather more powerful, I think...

[Edric O]

Acriku, what proof do you have for your claims that most atheists are kind people? Or that "most humanitarians are atheists" - what gave you that idea? Can you prove it?

Now, as you've said it yourself, there is no single set of atheist morals. And that's exactly the problem I've been pointing out. Atheist morals can change over night, or fluctuate randomly. There is nothing to stop atheists from developing moral "values" that consider genocide and slavery to be good and noble things to do.

In essence, my problem with atheist morals is that they are utterly random and prone to change constantly.

[emprworm]

"You should not say the atheist morality, because that means that there is only one and that is it. You should say an atheist morality"

well in that case, you should not say "THE Christian morality" or "THE Hindu morality" or "THE Islamic morality"

you should say a Christian morality.

[Acriku]

Wrong empr, christianity holds the ten commandments, THE christian morality. I don't know about the other religions, perhaps someone could shed some light onto that.

Edric, I don't have "proof," and will not go into debate over who has more in humanitarianism, I just made a casual statement - one which wasn't my whole argument, a minute portion of it even, but think about it - all of the atheists I know of want the world to be the best it can be (and kind as well), and thus humanitarians, perhaps I should have said a large sect of humanitarians are atheist. Again, this is casual.

Edric, atheism doesn't have a moral system. Atheists do. Everyone does. The outside and inner influences affect the morale of somebody same as everybody, without theism put into it. Does your morale change randomly and sporatically? Why would atheists be prone to such then?