Babies going to hell...

[Edric O]

Hehe, you are right about that, Acriku, but you still didn't answer my question: Do you have any basis on which to condemn the nazis as universally evil? Or is it just a matter of changing social values?

[Acriku]

I can't say that they are evil, but morally different. Call some blind patriots, some just sadistic, and some who didn't even want to do it - and hated Hitler. I could point to one person committing such acts as wrong, but that would be my opinion.

[Edric O]

So, in other words, as an atheist you can't call blind racism and genocide universally evil. I'm glad we got that sorted out.

Now, what if it happened again? What if we developed a society in which killing Jews, for example, would be considered a good and noble thing to do? If the vast majority of society agrees, would that make killing Jews a good thing?

[Acriku]

From an outside perspective or from inside of the society?

[Edric O]

Let's assume there is no outside. This society contains everyone in the world.

[Acriku]

Then from inside the society, either one will never consider that it may be wrong due to being a product of society, or inner morality developed as critical thinking developed finds this wrong and opposes it, or parents that had parents that had parents (and so on...) that were brought into this society with morals from their previous society and opposed the new society, and taught their children, and their children taught their children, the morals from the parent. Other things may be possible, I just haven't thought of them at the moment.

[Edric O]

So, basically, it would be neither good nor evil. In your world, there are no absolute standards to judge it by.

Somewhere, a young officer tracks down a poor family... let's say it was your family, Acriku. He finds them. He takes out his gun, and gets ready to kill them. One of the children shouts at him that this is wrong, that he is commiting a horrible crime. But the officer only does what he thinks is moral. He turns to you, and asks you for one good reason why your morals are better than his. If you find one, he will spare you all. But can you find one, Acriku?

[Acriku]

So, basically, it would be neither good nor evil. In your world, there are no absolute standards to judge it by.

Exactly, morality is subjective.

Somewhere, a young officer tracks down a poor family... let's say it was your family, Acriku. He finds them. He takes out his gun, and gets ready to kill them. One of the children shouts at him that this is wrong, that he is commiting a horrible crime. But the officer only does what he thinks is moral. He turns to you, and asks you for one good reason why your morals are better than his. If you find one, he will spare you all. But can you find one, Acriku?

"Officer, because I love those people, you don't know them. They are my life, and my love. Kill me rather than them."

[Edric O]

So, in the end, you couldn't find any reason why your moral values are any better than his...

Therefore he just went ahead and killed you all. And by doing so, he is no worse than you. Because morality is subjective. In fact, you yourself are no better or worse than Hitler. Because morality is subjective. Saving lives is no better than commiting genocide. Because morality is subjective.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

[Acriku]

Morality is subjective because people have different morals. There is no universal morality. Like there are some in this society (American society) that think it is alright to kill a few people every now and then. But moral development, the society, or influences (peers, parents) bring upon one's morality. Some apparently lack a moral system, but I haven't found much evidence supporting such.

[TMA_1]

you are basing morality on a majority demographic, who says the majority is right?

[Acriku]

No I am not.

[TMA_1]

that is exactly what you are doing. since morality is subjective, then you would have to count on the standards of morality for each culture in general. You would have to find what the majority feels is immoral and moral. That is exactly what I stated and its pretty dangerous to trust something based only on the fact that a majority believes in it.

[Acriku]

Not what is majority is moral, but what the majority feels is moral would be the morality of that society. Doesn't mean it is right, just means the majority of that society has such-and-such morale.

[TMA_1]

but that kind of attitude breeds a tepid culture. There are no absolutes, and that breeds chaos.

[Acriku]

As I have said, morality does not always come from the society. Chaos? In what form? People bombing buildings and feeding off of little children or lack of law enforcement or what?

[Caid Ivik]

One day I'm out how much mess... Sometimes the majority don't know what is the best for them. Remember, Hitler was elected by his nation. Morale has absolute values, which some people disliked, because it threatens their mind after committing sin. You cannot be hedonist and also believe in morale, so only way to remain clear in society's eyes is to relativizate it, make it a thing of flexible society, not of ever-lasting, dogmatic religion. Whole this disabsolutization of morale is just thing to forgive someone's sins.

[TMA_1]

everything acriku, everything. the mindset of subjective morals taught to people will effect everything you do later in life. not everybody is as mature as you. Some people are weak and ill not guide themselves by their own will. this type of person is many in the world. This is where chaos would grow. Also for people in high positions who pander to what people want. This would lead to a bad rulership as well.

[Acriku]

Hitler had 33% of the country's support, hardly the majority.

I guess I should hunt you down and kill you Caid, since after all I am an atheist. *Boo!* :D

[Caid Ivik]

After second votes in 1934 he had much more. Also i.e. his czechoslovak filiale, Henlein's Sudetogerman Party, was winner there, voted by 95% of german minority. And they weren't only german party here, just most pro-hitleristic...

Unless you have a reason, you possibly won't. But look at mafia. For what they shoot themselves? For money, what atheistic culture brought over human life. Why? Because they think only about this life and want to have as much pleasure as they have time!

[Acriku]

Sounds just like Saddam's voting ;)

Haha atheistic culture brought money, greed, and organized crime? For organized crime, prohibition brought that one on, and greed was always here, and money began who knows when. Atheists (atleast the ones I know of) use their time in life to get all they can out of it, and to give all they can out of it. Getting things such as a family, a job, going out on adventures before they die, finding that exhilirating adrenaline while jumping out of a place, etc. They also give all they can, being humanitarians for instance. Most humanitarians are atheists, so I don't think they are living just to have as much pleasure as they can...And that can be turned around against christians, christians have a next life to look towards, so why care about this life? Just pass the prerequisites, and to hell with everything else! No, this is not correct about christians, and no what you said is not correct about atheists.

[Caid Ivik]

You should read the Bible. Really, because you don't know anything about christianity. Main factor isn't what you've done bad, but what you've done good. But relative morale created by atheism (please don't tell me that Al Capone or other mafians were hard christians) just mists these terms of "good" and "bad" and caused (after fanatical view) most suffering in our history, the world wars (only way for our country to stay powerful), nazism (everything's under nation) and communism (everything for "better tommorow").

[Acriku]

Caid, I said it wasn't correct, why do you have to argue against it when I agree with you?

I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. - Mahatma Gandhi

I don't know what Al Capone's beliefs were, but if he was an atheist, so what?

[Caid Ivik]

Atheists in their core aren't bad. But atheistic culture, however, is. Gandhi also isn't the man we should talk about. He was an Hindu, other culture, which believes in predestination, no self-responsibility as we christians do.

[TMA_1]

Hitler had 33% of the country's support, hardly the majority.

one example is not going to prove a point silly.