A calm debate

[Acriku]

Perhaps you didn't read what I just said?

[emprworm]

ya ok, i think i understand. allright. i had to read it again, sorry.

[Acriku]

Well since Emprworm (Or JudgeJudy, whatever made him pick that name) wants evolution to be talked here, then let's.

My question before, what is so hard to understand of evolution? It doesn't take a genius who can explore the world to notice such things, as Darwin did, but in his case he came to two conclusions and documented a lot of evidence for it, which takes a good mind. Not known by many, Alfred Wallace actually came to the almost identical conclusion Darwin did, so this isn't some blindshot into biology, it is based on facts, and is as true as gravity on Earth is. So let's talk...

[emprworm]

we already talked about it. there is no proof and many credible scientists denounce it as bunk.

there is simply nothing more to add until you have proof. till that time comes, it remains faith

[Acriku]

No proof? Do you choose to turn away from any book you see that pertains to any sort of biology? I am in AP Biology and we learn about all kinds of proof for evolution, and just getting introduced to different mechanisms for evolution, like natural selection. I would advise you to read a biology book college edition, there you will find proofproofproofproof.

[emprworm]

nope no proof, you heard me. none.

would you like to present it now?

[Acriku]

Oh but I did? Guess you forgot about it. You can look for it in this thread again, it's a link with my words around it saying "proof." But that isn't all the proof, you would learn a lot more in biology. Perhaps you are new to this sort of class? It's where you go in, learn about the study of life, evolution, and its proof, and many other wonderful things about life, and then you move on.

[nemafakei]

Acriku, what's the point? You know there's nothing can convince him, save a time machine, and some well-built escorts to ensure he sees every generation one by one. To get him riled by using reason will do no good, as we have already found.

(note sarcasm, if you are not perceptive enough to see it for yourself)

[emprworm]

you talk of reason? I think you should see this thread here: http://www.dune2k.com/forum/?board=2;action=display;threadid=8362

because reason is the one thing being left at the door

[Acriku]

I guess what I wanted to do was help him understand. It isn't that hard to understand the basics of evolution, but sometimes beliefs are too built-in I guess. By the way Nema, I am reading Origin of Species, quite interesting, but long ;).

[emprworm]

i understand the theory of evolution already.

and i wanted to help you understand the faith of atheism. it isnt that hard to understand the basic tenants of faith required to postulate an atheistic world view, but some beliefs are just too built in.

[nemafakei]

I'm not going to argue; This is "FED2k Discussion", not Fed2k Argument.

All I will say to that thread is that you have not yet considered all the possiblilities of the chair's existance. You overlook an assumption work out what it is for yourself, if you want anything thought-provoking to come, rather than another argument.

[Acriku]

There is faith in everything, but that isn't the same faith you use to put in God. Like I have faith my t.v. will turn on when I push "Power." Be sure not to be ambiguous intentionally.

[emprworm]

sorry Nema, about that you are wrong. there are no other options for the chairs existence. to postulate so requires great faith and an abandonment of reason. and if you feel that this debate has become too heated such that you are getting angry, i will respect that and not respond to you and hopefully we can keep it within sane levels. However, I feel no anger or hostility at all.

[nemafakei]

I am not angry. I have only been angry on Fed2k once (only after being insulted, and did not confer that upon my post), and I see no reason to frustrate myself to that level again.

"there are no other options for the chairs existence"

Then look harder at what you assume, and forget about Acriku and everything else that is, and focus on the chair.

[emprworm]

ok I am focusing on the chair.

the chair either

1) Began to exist

2) Did not begin to exist

One of those must be true, while the other false.

There cannot be another option here.

If the chair began to exist, then we can ask the following question:

1) Its beginning was caused.

2) Its beginning was not caused.

Thus, the chair either:

began to exist and was caused

began to exist and was not caused

did not begin to exist