emprworm Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 I am sickened that tomorrow morning, the 40 or so Chechnyans holding up a Russian theater in Moscow will start killing people unless Russia leaves Chechnya. I can understand the desire for people to be independent. I can understand Russia's desire to preserve its borders. BUT back when communism collapsed, there was a wide-scale breakdown in Russian provinces. Chechnya declared its indpendence. I think they have that right. Russia even eventually let them- despite gross brutality on BOTh sides. But then Chechnya goes and starts getting greedy expanding their territory south into Dagestan, and wages a war of terrorism so Russia re-occupies. I'm sorry but waging terroristic acts will get you NOWHERE. On one hand, I agree Russia should leave, and at the same time, I want to see those pathetic terrorists punished severely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nampigai Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 this goes against what you've said earlier on the oh my god thread doesn't it? IMO it's the same scenario. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emprworm Posted October 25, 2002 Author Share Posted October 25, 2002 goes against what? Since when did I ever promote waging terroristic acts against anyone?Please quote me next time before you accuse me of saying anything. What you just did was tasteless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunenewt Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 I think Russia should crush Chechnya and their rebels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emprworm Posted October 25, 2002 Author Share Posted October 25, 2002 well make no bones about it: if those 700 people die, Russia would be stupid not to, lest it happen again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anathema Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 everyone on this earth took their land from someone else. Are we going to tell all the Australians to pack up their bags and leave because the Aborigines want their land back? Well, if the Aborigines are STRONG enough to take it by force, then well, too bad for the Aussies. To aquire land via revolution, you have to be the STRONGEST. Thats just how it goes. If all 200 million Americans suddenly wanted to have Edric's government instituted and rose up by force and abolished the US capitalist government, then who is going to stop them? Whos right would it be to barge in and say NO? Surely not some Eurpopean is going to impose themselves on internal American affairs (unless crimes against humanity are being committed- which do NOT include deaths as the result of normal armed conflict.)What's the difference with Israelians/Palestinians? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emprworm Posted October 25, 2002 Author Share Posted October 25, 2002 lol earthnuker. you quote my argument which answers your question.you asked me: What's the difference with Israelians/Palestinians? to which I respond with the quote you just cited. however, that is not this topic of this thread. I want to talk about russia/chechnya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunenewt Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 {c=blue]The Chechnyans aren't furthering their cause very well by taking Hostages and acting like this. They should act civilly - or Russia really will get them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anathema Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 There is one party that wants a particular thing, and the other one doesn't want to give in. Therefore party 1 resorts to terrorists activities.This applies to both the situation in Israel and Russia. However, you believe you should give the Israelians and Palestinians free hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terror Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 hmm i don't know what to think, they released all non russians and children under 12 year so far which i consider a humanitarian act and it also explains that it's the russians they're after, not the rest of the world. and i think they should be independant. you can't FORCE somebody to like you, you have to earn it. these people have lost their thrust in russia and want to become independant, i don't see why that isn't allowed. Theoretically i think that i should have the right to claim a piece of land to start my own country. i mean, eventually everyone is a sort of slave to the government. we have to follow rules that we do not like, and we cannot change it. if i don't want anything to do with the government then i should have the right to become totally independant, not receiving any support from the government but neither pay money to the government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nampigai Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 first of all I believe Russia should back up and leave Chechnya, if you see the conditions the Chechnya people are living under people would start understanding why they use these methods. Not that I'm for what the terrorists are doing but they have no other means. Since the campaigns against Afghanistan it's like Putin got free hands on Chechnya cause they are rebels and terrorists. I'm surprised that the world haven't said anything out aloud about chechnya before now, this seems to be what it takes to drag the attention, sad enough, but maybe it's because the world is affraid of Russia I don't know.second you asked for a quote:What I ment was that I see this conflict the same way as I see the Israelli/palestinian conflict and the Nothern Irish conflict. IMO Russi is behaving like Israel.So you cannot say they should leave since its now there's. If you say Israel should leave, then so should Americans and protestants in Ireland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunenewt Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 hmm i don't know what to think, they released all non russians and children under 12 year so far which i consider a humanitarian act and it also explains that it's the russians they're after, not the rest of the world. and i think they should be independant. you can't FORCE somebody to like you, you have to earn it. these people have lost their thrust in russia and want to become independant, i don't see why that isn't allowed. Theoretically i think that i should have the right to claim a piece of land to start my own country. i mean, eventually everyone is a sort of slave to the government. we have to follow rules that we do not like, and we cannot change it. if i don't want anything to do with the government then i should have the right to become totally independant, not receiving any support from the government but neither pay money to the government.They didn't. There are still British people in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terror Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 hmm in that case our newspaper posted it wrong, it does say that there are still dutch people there but they are russian by origin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunenewt Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 first of all I believe Russia should back up and leave Chechnya, if you see the conditions the Chechnya people are living under people would start understanding why they use these methods. Not that I'm for what the terrorists are doing but they have no other means. Since the campaigns against Afghanistan it's like Putin got free hands on Chechnya cause they are rebels and terrorists. I'm surprised that the world haven't said anything out aloud about chechnya before now, this seems to be what it takes to drag the attention, sad enough, but maybe it's because the world is affraid of Russia I don't know.second you asked for a quote:What I ment was that I see this conflict the same way as I see the Israelli/palestinian conflict and the Nothern Irish conflict. IMO Russi is behaving like Israel.So you cannot say they should leave since its now there's. If you say Israel should leave, then so should Americans and protestants in Ireland.I think the Protestants have a right to stay in Northern Ireland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emprworm Posted October 25, 2002 Author Share Posted October 25, 2002 lol I dont see Russia acting like Israel. Russia is a huge country fighting to preserve the status quo. Chechnya is a little blip that wants independendce, just like the Jews want independence while palestine wants to preserve the status quo. If the chechnyans want independence, then they have every right to fight for it, but not with the methods they are using. that is deplorable. Though I sympatheize with their motives, I cannot sympatheize with their actions to carry them out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anathema Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 The Palestinians use terrorism, and Israel terrorises the Palestinians with its army. And Palestinians are the minority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nampigai Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 ok this is how I see it Russia and Israel both have HUGE military might compared to Chechnya and PalestinaRussia don't want Chechnya to become independed and Sharon (I say Sharon because I know some Israeli is against the war) doesn't want the Palestinian to have their own country.maybe it's just me but I see them comparative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emprworm Posted October 25, 2002 Author Share Posted October 25, 2002 The Palestinians use terrorism, and Israel terrorises the Palestinians with its army. And Palestinians are the minority. lol. using an army is acceptable mechanism of war. Torture and deliberate targeting of non-combatants is not. Notice i say "non-combatants" because civillians that carry guns or house other combatants are valid targets of war under the geneva convention and such deaths cannot be construed as crimes against humanity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emprworm Posted October 25, 2002 Author Share Posted October 25, 2002 Well then if Chechnya is not strong enough to succeed, then they lose. Plain and simiple. Like I said, I think ppl have a right to seek independence, but that doesn't mean they have to succeed in doing so. I may have a personal opinion on the matter, but I think the rest of the world should stay out of it because it an internal uprising within Russiaterrorism, however, is everyone's buisness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nampigai Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 fair enough, however I belive that we as fellow humans have an obligation to not allow the attrocaties we see in Chechnya I don't think anyone her would like to live like they do. I know Putin has ahuge problem as he got elected on a harsh line towards Chechnya and it will be very difficult for him to get out of this without a bloodbath. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunenewt Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 I think the problem is that with Bush's 'War on Terrorism' he only includes factions/countries which are actively anti-USA. He ignores the Chechnyan rebels,ETA(Basque separatists) and the IRA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emprworm Posted October 25, 2002 Author Share Posted October 25, 2002 not allow the attrocaties we see in Chechnya I don't think anyone her would like to live like they do. i agree with this. both russian and chechnya have committed every war crime conceivable. Russians raping and killing chechnyan women, killing children, ect. It is just sickening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emprworm Posted October 25, 2002 Author Share Posted October 25, 2002 Dune, what do you do? Russian soliders have committed atrocities also. Bush can do nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunenewt Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 Emprworm, your problem is you are too influenced by propaganda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emprworm Posted October 25, 2002 Author Share Posted October 25, 2002 dune, your problem is you are so anti-american you go so far as to actually blame the russia/chechnya conflict on a Bush policy. cmon man, wake up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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