Spew All About Politics Here

[Acriku]

I guess we all have a lot to learn about law then...*sigh*

[Edric O]

Emprworm:

But it forbids private companies, private schools, probably private (fill in the blank). Sorry, but i am an individual. I am unique. My purpose in life is not to conform to a society. I serve my society as an individual. I use the word "I" when I refer to my personal dreams and hopes. Only I am accountable to God for MY life and my actions...no one else.

I never advocated conformity! I value individuals, but not if they seek to get rich at the expense of others.

If I want to start a private club or a business, I should have the freedom in my government to do so.

Why? What does that have to do with being an individual? Don't you have another way of affirming your individuality than stomping on others?

I should not ever be mandated to fork out the efforts of my labor to everyone else, nor do I have any desire whatsoever to have their labor and their life's work mandatorily handed to me.

This would be fine and wonderful if capitalism awarded everyone according to their work. But it doesn't. In capitalism, your labor means nothing. The best way to move up is to exploit others and ruin their lives for your own gain.

Sure, you can also work your way up. But that fails most of the time, because of all the people who only want to exploit you.

Emprworm, you were lucky. Don't assume everyone is like that.

It is a cowards society, and one with no honor.

Ha ha ha!!! And since when is capitalism honourable? That is one of the funniest jokes I ever heard. Capitalism encourages people to be immoral greedy bastards. There is no honour. Ever heard the phrase "nice guys finish last"? That's capitalism for you.

I'll be poor, destitute and honorable any day before i take a single dime of someone elses money or creative genious that you took by force.

We don't take anything by force. People CO-OPERATE.

[nemafakei]

Hmmm. When viewing capitalism, you cannot view the US alone. The problem is that capitalism affects how countries trade with one another.

Those who deal in money, making profit from it, but producing nothing, get paid a lot, but those who work hard on farms and similar, and provide resources that support the global economy with real value to put to the money, are paid less. The farmers are also, in effect, totally supporting the money-dealers.

Given that the ratio of productive industry to 'profiteering' industry in the US is lower than that of the world as a whole, the US cannot be considered a total view of capitalism, as it is dependant on poorer countries. Therefore, the argument that "we're ok in the US, so capitalism's great" does not work.

Moreover, capita1lism is followd by poorer countries, and it's not done them much good - the US and other major capitalists seem to already have the profiteering part of the system in the bag, leaving the rest of the world to do all the more poorly-paid, more useful work.

This reminds me of a sort of economic feudalism.

[emprworm]

value individuals, but not if they seek to get rich at the expense of others.

I would never get rich at the expense of others. a few people do that (such as the Enron scandal) and usually it is ILLEGAL (not always but usually). Many people get rich at the expense of no one. that is the wonders of capitalism. Everyone can come out ahead, and no one loses.

[Anathema]

When you set up a shoe industry in 3rd world countries, do you pay those (children) labourers a decent wage? NO, you take advantage of the low local wages while earning lot's of cash yourself.

[emprworm]

i dont like Nike anyway. if you are going to judge capitalism because of what a shoe company does, thats pretty pathetic. with freedom comes people who are losers. So you point out a few losers in capitalism and then conclude that everyone capitalistic uses child labor in third world countries? Get real, Earthnuker. You are smarter than that.

[Anathema]

I'm not talking about anybody in particular, but as the systme as a whole. And there are more then just a "few" losers when it comes to global capitalism.

[emprworm]

Earthnuker: has it ever dawned on you that perhaps...just perhaps...the country of Taiwan that allowed Nike to hire children is responsible in any way?

Whats your 'blame' capitalism problem? I wouldnt exactly call Taiwan 3rd world anyway, though parts of it could be argued as such. The Nike factory in Taiwan isn't in a 3rd world location anyway. You point out ONE bad apple and conclude 'as a whole'. This is preposterous. If you are going to use terms like 'as a whole' you're gonna need a LOT more than just a shoe company.

i do not accept your conclusion based off of a shoe company.

And there are more then just a "few" losers when it comes to global capitalism.

who? cut the accusations if you cant name anyone. Go look at the evolution / creation thread, and maybe you'll notice I back up my claims. Someone challenged that there are no real creation scientists. i responded by listing 100 scientists with PhD's who believe in creaiton. he then wants to know what their MINORS were (lol). But guess what? I GIVE HIM THAT TOO. I even list bio's.

Why am I the only one around here who backs up his claims?

Cmon earthnuker, dont give me this 'more than just a few' crap without POSTING more than just a few.

thanks.

[Anathema]

http://www.worldbank.org/research/povmonitor/

This illustrates the inequality of income pretty well.

Half the world -- nearly three billion people -- live on less than two dollars a day.

The GDP (Gross Domestic Product) of the poorest 48 nations (i.e. a quarter of the world's countries) is less than the wealth of the world's three richest people combined.

Nearly a billion people entered the 21st century unable to read a book or sign their names.

Less than one per cent of what the world spent every year on weapons was needed to put every child into school by the year 2000 and yet it didn't happen.

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Poverty.asp

http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/resolve/globalcrisis/3rdwld.html#3

These very unfair distributions of the world's resource wealth come about primarily because rich countries can outbid poor countries. If you allow the market to allocate scarce things like oil, when a few are rich and many are poor, then inevitably the rich will get most of them. The market has no concern whatsoever for what humans need; it will always distribute things according to "effective demand", which means that richer people and nations can take what they want first.

[emprworm]

earthnuker: AND? Which United States company, exactly, is causing that?

What you are doing is pathetic. You are citing the problems in the world and blaming capitalism. LOL. I say COMMUNISM is to blame. There how's that? No, socialism! Socialism has caused all disease, hunger, strife and poverty in the world. You want proof for this?

Here is my proof:

Half the world -- nearly three billion people -- live on less than two dollars a day.

The GDP (Gross Domestic Product) of the poorest 48 nations (i.e. a quarter of the world's countries) is less than the wealth of the world's three richest people combined.

Nearly a billion people entered the 21st century unable to read a book or sign their names.

Less than one per cent of what the world spent every year on weapons was needed to put every child into school by the year 2000 and yet it didn't happen

This proves that socialism causes all the world problems.

[Anathema]

Huh? How does that blame socialism?

Anyway, most countries are poor because of incompetent leadership- but that doesn't meant that the rich countries won't take advantage of the atrocious conditions over there.

You see, capitalism is only fair if everybody has equal chances to start with. But people that are born in third world countries do not have equal chances. Regardless of what caused that, the current division is far from just- and capitalist countries aren't trying hard enough IMO to change that.

Sure, we pump billions of economical aid into those countries, but that aid is negligent compared to the money that is earned with industries that rely on cheap third world labour.

[emprworm]

well, first you tell me how it blames capitalism. once you tell me how it blames capitalism, i'll just cut and paste it to blame socialism.

see, the problem here is this, earthnuker: you cited a specific thing- a shoe company that WAS (no longer is) taking advantage of child labor in a poor country. You then stretch your statement to say that such an example represented capitalism 'as a whole.'

I dont let you get away with that, so I request MORE companies. MORE specific evidence. In return you quote some broad-based general factoid that basically says "there are poor countries in the world."

AND?

Just becuase poor countries exist doesnt mean we are to blame any more than it means YOU are to blame. If you are going to blame us for that, start citing evidence, or i'll just turn it around and blame you for it.

[emprworm]

You see, capitalism is only fair if everybody has equal chances to start with. But people that are born in third world countries do not have equal chances.

because they are not born in a free capitalistic society. the problem is not external governments as much as the problem lies WITHIN their own government.

[Anathema]

That I will not deny- but western companiess do take advantage of the low wages in third world countries.

[emprworm]

how earthnuker? What companies? What are they doing? I have been asking you these questions for the last month accross numerous threads. And I get the same vague answers. Trying to talk to you is like trying to talk to a wall.

Emprworm: WHICH COMPANIES?

Earthnuker: Half the world -- nearly three billion people -- live on less than two dollars a day. Capitalism is to blame.

Emprworm: WHAT ARE THE COMPANIES DOING, SPECIFICALLY?

Earthnuker: The GDP (Gross Domestic Product) of the poorest 48 nations (i.e. a quarter of the world's countries) is less than the wealth of the world's three richest people combined. Capitalism is to blame.

emprworm: Which countries, specifically are being victimized by US companies?

Earthnuker: Nearly a billion people entered the 21st century unable to read a book or sign their names. Capitalism is to blame.

Emprworm: Which companies?

Earthnuker: Less than one per cent of what the world spent every year on weapons was needed to put every child into school by the year 2000 and yet it didn't happen

Emprworm: Hold on a second. I asked 'which companies' all ready and your first answer was "Half the world -- nearly three billion people -- live on less than two dollars a day. ", and now you are changing your answer to "Less than one per cent of what the world spent every year on weapons was needed to put every child into school by the year 2000 and yet it didn't happen"?

So which answer is it? I am asking, "Which Companies Specifically."

Earthnuker: I told you that already.

Emprworm: No, please tell me again. Which companies are doing all this?

Earthnuker: The market has no concern whatsoever for what humans need; it will always distribute things according to "effective demand"

Emprworm: *Bangs head repeatedly on the desk*

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Emprworm: uhhh...ow?

[Edric O]

Ouch, that must of hurt. :)

So, you want names? Very well. Take your pick at this site, which rates companies in dozens of areas by several criteria of your choice (including human rights - that's what we're interested in):

http://www.idealswork.com/home.asp?from=/index.asp

Also a HIGHLY recommended article:

http://www.idealswork.com/editorial/adm100502.asp

Do you deny the fact that the only thing that matters in capitalism is profit? If it weren't for laws, corporate overlords wouldn't think twice about using SLAVES and treating them like animals.

[emprworm]

Edric, everytime I ask Earthnuker to do some work, you end up doing it for him. Cmon man make him do something for a change. But verywell, I'll have a look at those sites. But they better be SPECIFIC. Last time i looked up your sites, I got the same broad-based generalized stuff that I keep getting from earthnuker.

[Edric O]

In all honesty, you have to admit that many of your sites were the same... Most sites don't give strict scientific evidence for each and every word they write. It wouldn't be feasible.

[emprworm]

Food First reports that the U.S. government's subsidization of corporate farms encourages the dumping of commodity crops

[emprworm]

In all honesty, you have to admit that many of your sites were the same

bogus! cut the crap, Edric. I always back up my claims. Click here to see what I typically do:

http://www.dune2k.com/forum/index.php?board=2;action=display;threadid=6684;start=150

I state the specific evidence FIRST. THEN i cite sources for further reading regarding what i SPECIFICALLY stated.

You state nothing but vague stuff and cite me a whole website about stuff I'm not even asking. I asked specific questions. In return I get www.TheEntireInternet.com

[Edric O]

Fine then. My evidence isn't up to your standards. Satisfied?

But the next time YOU make a claim, I will apply the same extreme skeptical principle of "it's not true unless it hits me on the head" which you seem to like so much.

And if you actually look at the site, you'll notice it is very much a capitalist site.

[emprworm]

here's what I am going to do, Edric. I'm going to repeat myself endlessly until one of two things happen:

#1. either you and/or earthnuker answer my questions directly

#2. you and earthnuker stop your accusations about capitalism being to blame for third world problems.

So I will begin

{begin the Edric/Earthnuker challenge}

Which third world countries are being injured by the US? Which US companies are doing it? What are they doing specifically? And why does the actions of those companies implicate anything other than those companies?

{end the Edric/Earthnuker challenge}

I will continue to ask this ad-infinitum until conditions 1 or 2 is met or until Gob bans me.

[Anathema]

God damn! If I claim trees have leafs, do I need to point out wich trees have leaves? Oh well, here's a site:

http://www.poptel.org.uk/women-ww/codes_pack4.htm

Levi Strauss: An Example of a Code

Levi Strauss is known the world over for its jeans. Levi's got a lot of bad publicity after it was found producing jeans with slave labour on the island of Saipan.

Since then it has produced a code of conduct for all its operations. The code is called the 'Levi Strauss & Co. Global Sourcing and Operating Guidelines'.

The code says how Levis will work with its business partners (the Terms of Engagement). Partners must aim to work with a set of ethical and environmental standards similar to Levis, be law-abiding, and put something back into the community.

Levis also looks at the reputation of a country before it decides to place its orders in factories there.

Levis says that keeping to these standards is good for its own image and reputation among customers.

And Nike

The giant sportswear company Nike from the USA became a big focus. US consumers found that Nike was deliberately getting its production done in countries like Indonesia, China and Vietnam where labour standards are low because free trade unions are weak or not allowed at all. This allowed Nike and its sub-contractors to profit by paying the shoe workers wages below the legal minimum, forcing them to do overtime to meet orders, and exposing them to lung and skin diseases from dust and glues.

http://www.radicalthought.org/A55868/cocoa.nsf/ffe5f071bd92bf0d86256a7e0053101a/9dbb859a57a50a2885256a7700490859!OpenDocument

ECA is aware of certain allegations regarding the use of slavery on cocoa plantations in the Ivory Coast. These claims raise a grave issue and deserve very careful consideration.

[Edric O]

You go ahead and do that, Emprworm. I'm buisy. I have a life (well, sort of). You're asking me to invest many hours in internet research. And for what? To prove a point that you won't believe anyway? No thanks. I'll find you more proof when I'll have enough spare time.

[emprworm]

You go ahead and do that, Emprworm. I'm buisy. I have a life (well, sort of). You're asking me to invest many hours in internet research. And for what? To prove a point that you won't believe anyway? No thanks. I'll find you more proof when I'll have enough spare time.

that is what it all comes down to then, doesn't it Edric. When all the smoke clears, what we are left with is you and Earthnuker blaming the worlds problems on capitalism with no evidence to substantiate your claims.

Dissappointed? Yes, I am. Surprised? No.