Spew All About Politics Here

[emprworm]

Your only alternative would be an elitist who is merely a popular elitist; there is no reason for an intellectual to be elitist, but politicians are more likely to be politico-elitists, having entered into politics anyway!

And we know that there are malicious people who are good at being politicians and can rally support well for their own power.

Uhh..last I checked the small town of Tacoma- (my home town :) ) had an election for a Mayor who was a simple man who used to be a local police officer. Wow, what an elitist.

Do you honestly think that the populace of the world has much of a real choice? Of course! They are free to choose Corrupt person A or corrupt person B! Wow!

of course they do. They dont have to vote for someone on a ballot. They can put any name on there they want. And corrupt to whom? Corrput to Nema? Corrupt to Edric? A LOT of people actually like George Bush, including myself. I dont see him corrupt at all. SOme people do. Big deal. Corruption is an entirely subjective determination. Elitism is when you want to force your will on others. YOU dont like them therefore YOU think you should ursurp the voice of the people and impose YOUR candidates. And you dont call that corruption?

I call that elitist corrpution in an extreme sense.

The point of the exams are to stop idiots getting in. The point of the selection process is to stop greedy people manipulating power. Don't confuse the two.

hmmm...ok, maybe I confused the two. Please elaborate a bit on the type of questions the exam will have. Is it stricly a test on factual knowledge (math, language, etc.) or are there any moral/philosophical questions on it? Does it assume any theories as factual (such as the various theories of economics). Lets say someone has a different theory of economics than Nema and Edric. Does he now fail because he is an "idiot?" How do you determine an idiot exactly? And no, you really haven't elaborated on the qualifications in this thread other than using a generalized term 'idiot.' I want to know- how do you determine if someone is an idiot? If you did elaborate already in this thread, I missed it and apologize. please quote or paste the link so that I can review it.

Yes, I'm sure you know what we think much better than we do. In fact, we should all bow before your unbound wisdom.

I only know what you say. And your statements are elitist. You have a low tolerance for other views. Bill Clinton gets elected. He is an idiot. I was very unhappy with his election. I tolerate it because many people were happy with his election and that is the free voice of the people. I do not try to make up new rules that say "ONLY MY CANDIDATES SHOULD BE IN OFFICE" and try to take away that voice of the people. That is what you continually declare in these forums. my only rational conclusion is that since you and Nema do not care much for the wishes of your people, assume them to just be a bunch of gullible idiots, and want to 'choose' for them, those are elitist statements.

LOL! There's no all-powerful "machine". It's just a random selection.

random selection from some 'pool' of people that is controlled by a non-random process. Enter corruption. A random machine that is maintained by a non-random process. Enter corruption again.

The competency exams don't just pop out of thin air. They must be approved by the people.

So now you have a general election for the competency exams? How often do you do this? once every 4 years? Once a year? Once forever?

One of the basic principles of Consiliary Dynamism is that NOTHING overrides the will of the majority.

nothing except a machine and some council who has no other councils above it to hold it accountable to wickedness. Oh wait, all the 55,331+ councils of the world could all come together for a huge session and "overrule" that one tiny little local council, but we all know the massive red tape that must occur before that happens. Therefore any local council that makes a decision that oppresses someone will stand. The person oppressed will have no higher authority to appeal to thanks to the wonderful "web system". Of course that person can appeal to the entire WEB but darn thats pretty hard to do since the web is so huge and it could take years for that gigantic web of thousands of councils from Peru to Hawaii to Alaska to New Zealand to finally make a cooperative decision regarding one tiny little council way out in Northern Mongolia.

A popular election is a popularity contest, and you need to spend millions of dollars to stand the slightest chance to get into office.

i dont know how it works in Romania, but that is not the case here in the US.

I ask you again: Could a homeless man become president of the USA?

goodness, I hope not. I suppose it is possible, but he wouldnt have my vote unless he was a very very unique homeless man highly educated with qualities of leadership, and drive. Most homeless people in this country are drug addicts and uneducated and have absolutely zero drive to do anything. Lazy people in office is the worst thing that could happen. I forget the statistics but its only like 1 in 20 ppl or so that have strong leadership characteristics. You will not see a person who is not a natural leader ever run for office- and they shouldnt. Even the abbhorent Bill Clinton at least was a highly charismatic leader- he had all the right qualities- just bad morality. Of course in your system, all those submissive, shy, weak, retractive, and reclusive character type people would be leaders since a machine chooses them. They may be geniouses and pass the exams, but they still make horrible leaders. Your system sucks. Really thats all I can say about it. Sorry for being brunt. :)

Every US president was/is a white male. Gotta love democracy

probably because that is the majority. That will change someday.

But there is far more diversity here than in your country. Yet i'm not going to rip apart your country like you do to mine.

[Edric O]

goodness, I hope not. I suppose it is possible, but he wouldnt have my vote unless he was a very very unique homeless man highly educated with qualities of leadership, and drive. Most homeless people in this country are drug addicts and uneducated and have absolutely zero drive to do anything. Lazy people in office is the worst thing that could happen. I forget the statistics but its only like 1 in 20 ppl or so that have strong leadership characteristics. You will not see a person who is not a natural leader ever run for office- and they shouldnt.

LOL. And you call me an elitist... ::)

You are supporting the EXACT SAME THING that I am supporting by introducing those competency exams, yet you argue against me.

There is a word for what your are doing here: Hypocrisy

[emprworm]

NO you dont, Edric. I said they "shouldnt" I never said that I want to create a government that FORBIDS it. You and nema want to forbid popular vote on someone. I do not.

Anyone can run for office.

BUT if you are a shy person who lacks leadership ability and is a horrible public speaker, just how in the world could you possibly make a good leader? No one would EVER look up to you as one to lead them, they will shun you. And they wont vote for you plain and simple. I do not want to forbid anything. Unlike you and Nema

[nemafakei]

"Wow, what an elitist"

You know exactly what I mean, so I won't bother to point how irrelevant your evidence is.

"Please elaborate a bit on the type of questions the exam will have."

General questions on a policy, and people have to give an answer with logical proof. Any reasonable answer is acceptable, if backed up well.

"Elitism is when you want to force your will on others"

No, elitism is perpetuating one group of society's hold on power.

"They can put any name on there they want. And corrupt to whom?"

Corrupt as in they make decisions for their own personal ambition (or ambition for their constituency or electorate over others), rather than because it's the right decision.

And while they casn put any name down, you have problems like the PR people, spin doctors and things re good at making sure that people keep voting for their candidate so they will get paid.

"probably because that is the majority"

Wow, are males really in such an overwhelming majority?

"But there is far more diversity here than in your country"

Edric doesn't propose his country as a good example of how his syatem works; you do of yours.

"how in the world could you possibly make a good leader"

You only should need to make a good policymaker - by seeing what the situation needs - by having impartiality and a bit of intelligence.

"A random machine that is maintained by a non-random process"

Go back - councils and scrutiny will work here, too. Hence, corruption eliminated.

[Edric O]

How does my government "forbid" them to run for office? They can simply study and pass the tests! The only thing those tests do is make sure the people who get into office are not stupid.

And maybe you didn't understand, but council members don't have to (and in many cases they should not) be good leaders. They must be people who get the job done. They don't inspire soldiers into battle, they handle the everyday problems of running a country.

You want a charismatic leader? Hitler was one! So was Lenin. Napoleon. Caesar. You don't want a President, you want an Emperor.

But there is far more diversity here than in your country. Yet i'm not going to rip apart your country like you do to mine.

Let's get one thing straight: Romania is a pathetic country with overly corrupt leaders. They are much worse than yours. But they also have much less power, unlike your leaders who basically control the world.

You know, G. W. Bush is visiting Romania tomorrow. Where are rotten tomatoes when you need them?

[emprworm]

And while they casn put any name down, you have problems like the PR people, spin doctors and things re good at making sure that people keep voting for their candidate so they will get paid.

oh, now you are going to control the media too?

ever hear of a guy named Joseph Goebbels? Thats what happens when government controls the media.

[emprworm]

You know, G. W. Bush is visiting Romania tomorrow. Where are rotten tomatoes when you need them?

G.W. Bush is a christian man and a good person.

When he rescued those missionary women from Afghanistan, he met with them and prayed with them. He comes under intense scrutiny everytime he leads our nation in prayer or holds a "national day of prayer.' Yes that is right! G.W. Bush called for a national day of prayer. I predict he will be the last world leader of the western world to ever do such a thing. Are there any European leaders who would dare ask their country to bend their knees before God?

THAT Edric is the kind of leader I want.

[Edric O]

What did that have to do with controlling the media??

In Consiliary Dynamism, without any way to be bribed, the media will be a powerful agent of truth.

[emprworm]

if there is one thing in the US that is un-bribe-able its the media.

i dont know what kind of media you have in Romania, but here in the US, NO ONE controls the media. No body. It is a fanatical chaotic mess. Exactly how it should be.

[nemafakei]

"Are there any European leaders who would dare ask their country to bend their knees before God?"

The Queen does every year.

Your point?

[emprworm]

i suppose that is a role of the martriarch. I guess I was looking for leaders with real political power- like Prime Minsiters, Presidents, Chancellors- those types.

[nemafakei]

"Thats what happens when government controls the media"

That's when politicians or political parties control the media. But when media is controlled by a fairly-chosen group from society, there is no problem.

Ant I think the Prme minister will (and did) say similar things when members of the Royal family die, and things like that.

[Edric O]

i dont know what kind of media you have in Romania, but here in the US, NO ONE controls the media. No body. It is a fanatical chaotic mess. Exactly how it should be.

Yes, keep on living in your pink fluffy fantasy. It seems reality is too much for you to handle.

It doesn't even take much effort to see who is currently bribing CNN, for example... Just watch a few of their news bulletins and you can usually figure it out.

G.W. Bush is a christian man and a good person.

When he rescued those missionary women from Afghanistan, he met with them and prayed with them. He comes under intense scrutiny everytime he leads our nation in prayer or holds a "national day of prayer.' Yes that is right! G.W. Bush called for a national day of prayer. I predict he will be the last world leader of the western world to ever do such a thing. Are there any European leaders who would dare ask their country to bend their knees before God?

THAT Edric is the kind of leader I want.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!! For God's sake, stop being so gullible! He only called that National Day of Prayer to get a few more PR points with the christian majority...

THAT Emprworm is what I call a good follower of Machiavelli.

He is using your beliefs and your values to manipulate you. One of the basic rules of propaganda is to always appeal to deeply rooted emotions. Such as faith.

[emprworm]

But when media is controlled by a fairly-chosen group from society, there is no problem.

LOL. You have just GOT to be kidding.

LOL this is just unreal, your government gets worse all the time. So now free speech is gone too?

ANYONE at ANYTIME should be able to say whatever they want and propogate their views as they see fit: internet, radio, television.

so now you have annual elections as to whos face you see on TV? Annual elections as to what tv shows to watch?

Exactly WHERE in your system do people get to do and say what they want?

Goebbels was successful because GOVERNMENT SQUELCHED other view points!!!

[nemafakei]

People shouldn't overtly lie; that is wrong.

But any form of large enterprise with large sales will have to be subject to some council control to ensure it does not misuse its power, else you get slander and misinformaiton.

"so now you have annual elections as to whos face you see on TV? Annual elections as to what tv shows to watch?"

Very funny.

I agree, I could have chosen my words more carefully. I did not mean that everything would be censored.

But also remember that political parties will not be able to take control and manipulate the media...

[Edric O]

I'm sure Nema just didn't choose his words properly. Stop nitpicking ferociously like that and allow people to correct ambiguous sentences!

Both me and Nema completely agree with this:

ANYONE at ANYTIME should be able to say whatever they want and propogate their views as they see fit: internet, radio, television.

The media should include everyone's opinions, not just those of a few reporters. And we are already getting there, thanks to the Internet.

[emprworm]

Yes, keep on living in your pink fluffy fantasy. It seems reality is too much for you to handle.

It doesn't even take much effort to see who is currently bribing CNN, for example... Just watch a few of their news bulletins and you can usually figure it out.

Edric, you live in a closet. You are a long ways from the US, and you know very little. I loathe CNN. I despise it. I never...EVER watch CNN so dont speak from such ignorance you only make yourself look foolish.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!! For God's sake, stop being so gullible! He only called that National Day of Prayer to get a few more PR points with the christian majority...

this is wrong, Edric. Examine your heart before you judge someone like that. America is your epitome of Evil, and its easy for you to condemn the soul of another man who happens to be the current president of that "evil" country. I am glad that God does not judge as you do. Think about what you are saying very carefully before you judge another mans eternal soul, Edric.

THAT Emprworm is what I call a good follower of Machiavelli.

George W. Bush is a very moral man and a believer in Jesus.

He is using your beliefs and your values to manipulate you. One of the basic rules of propaganda is to always appeal to deeply rooted emotions. Such as faith.

i am not easily manipulated- especially by politicians. you, however, have allowed your blind hatred of the US to cloud your ability to objectively reason- you did it with Bill Gates and you do it by condemning a man who has accepted the truth of of Jesus Christ, and will stand in Heaven with the Lord some day.

You are quick to hate Edric. Way too quick to hate. I think that is a sad thing about you.

[emprworm]

The media should include everyone's opinions, not just those of a few reporters. And we are already getting there, thanks to the Internet.

well the US media already does this spectacularly. I dont know about Nema's media. All opinion from extreme to extreme are broadcasted daily on airwaves and TV continuously- including socialism.

there is no media problem here as far as that goes.

[Edric O]

No, I am not quick to hate. I am only quick to doubt, suspect hidden agendas, and be generally mistrustful of anyone claiming to do things out of the goodness of his heart.

NEVER trust politicians. They wouldn't be where they are now if they weren't professional liars.

I do not hate America. Not at all! I hate only the American government and the corruption it perpetuates.

For the most part, your leaders (just like ours, for that matter), only do things that benefit themselves. Bush is no exception. Everything he does is for his own benefit. Morals? He doesn't know the meaning of the word!

[emprworm]

No, I am not quick to hate. I am only quick to doubt, suspect hidden agendas, and be generally mistrustful of anyone claiming to do things out of the goodness of his heart.

NEVER trust politicians. They wouldn't be where they are now if they weren't professional liars.

I do not hate America. Not at all! I hate only the American government and the corruption it perpetuates.

Edric, I believe you have a good consciense and you know right from wrong and earnestly desire to do good for humanity and pursue what is right. But what I also believe is that you are an angry young man who focuses a lot of hate on America- so much so that your ability to see people individually is lost in your generalized animosity against America. Instead of looking at George W. Bush the human being, you look at the "evil American Empire" and then equate the two. This is not right, Edric. Look at each individual as an individual. This is what God does, and is how we should be.

Trust must be earned, it is not given by default. Not all people in government positions are liars and cheats. That is a statement that has flowed out of your anger and spite and not out of truth. There are many honest people in Government. I worked for the U.S. Federal Government for 10 years. 4 of them were in the military, the other 6 were as a civillian federal employee. I know corrupted people and people with unbelievable honor and self-sacrifice. I have seen people actually take falls for someone else simply because of their dedication to principles and integrity.

For the most part, your leaders (just like ours, for that matter), only do things that benefit themselves. Bush is no exception. Everything he does is for his own benefit. Morals? He doesn't know the meaning of the word!

this statement is so repugnant, I cannot believe you could say this- even as one who professes to follow the Lord. You dont know Bush at all. You know nothing about him. Our media in America is filled with people like you who hate Bush, yet they cannot dig up any dirt on him. He has lived a morally upstanding life. He does not speak lies. No politician can open his mouth in this country and not be scrutinized like an ant under a microscope. He is scrutinized intensely. There are literally millions of people in MY COUNTRY as well as around the world who REALLY REALLY WANT to confirm that GW Bush is a liar, yet they cant do it. Not even here in my country. Why? Because he is...well....not a liar. And unless you tell me what he has lied about (give me quotes that came out of his mouth)...I will completely ignore any further blind unsubstantiated hatred spewing from your angry heart. How dare you say he has no morals. That is a very harsh thing to say. What has he done to make you say that?

[The_Sadukar]

THAT Emprworm is what I call a good follower of Machiavelli.

George W. Bush is a very moral man and a believer in Jesus.

He is using your beliefs and your values to manipulate you. One of the basic rules of propaganda is to always appeal to deeply rooted emotions. Such as faith.

i am not easily manipulated- especially by politicians. you, however, have allowed your blind hatred of the US to cloud your ability to objectively reason- you did it with Bill Gates and you do it by condemning a man who has accepted the truth of of Jesus Christ, and will stand in Heaven with the Lord some day.

1: worm, you just don't get it, in our time there is a big deffirnce between what a man says and does, so you great and glorius G. W. Bushman can easly be both.

2: the tick of manipulaton is to make sure that the manipulatet belives hi is not being manipulatet, belive me, I manipulate my (human) surrundings all day long.

[emprworm]

the tick of manipulaton is to make sure that the manipulatet belives hi is not being manipulatet, belive me, I manipulate my (human) surrundings all day long.

and assuming that eveyrone is manipulating you makes you paranoid and judmental. I look at the merits of your ACTIONS AS WELL AS your voice. You cannot hide those.

George W Bush has integrity. If you doubt it, tell me what exactly he has lied about. When all eyes are on you, its much harder to lie and get away with it. Yet still, he has not been caught in any lies.

[Acriku]

You mean Bush Sr. right? If so, then how about this:

Read my lips: No new taxes.

And a couple years later, brings in the new taxes.

If you mean Jr., how about this:

Convicted of Drunk Driving, and Lied to Cover It Up

George Bush now admits that he was convicted of drunk driving. On September 4, 1976, a state trooper saw Bush's car swerve onto the shoulder, then back onto the road. [The Bush camp spin that he was driving too slowly is simply a lie.] Bush failed a road sobriety test and blew a .10 blood alcohol, plead guilty, and was fined and had his driver's license suspended. His spokesman says that he had drunk "several beers" at a local bar before the arrest. Bush was 30 at the time. He now says that he stopped drinking when he turned 40 because it was a problem.

More troubling, Bush lied in denying such an arrest, and still won't take responsibility for his actions. His first reaction was to blame Democrats and Fox News -- the only openly conservative TV network -- for reporting the story. "Why [was this reported] now, four days before the election? I've got my suspicions." He refused to say what his suspicions are, though. Bush admits covering up the story, but seems to think he has no responsibility for the failure of his cover up.

In fact, just like Clinton with Monica Lewinsky, Bush has brazenly and repeatedly lied to cover up and minimize this arrest.

Like father like son...

[emprworm]

lol, Acriku- you have got to be kidding, right?

Everyone knows about the drunk driving thing that happened 30 years ago. he never covered it up, he admits it plainly. he was upset that the media would go to such lengths as to character assasinate him for something he did back when he was in his college years, so get the story right. That is not a lie. Being mad that someone would dig up dirt from 30 years ago is not the same as telling a lie. he never denied the incident. If you claim he did, QUOTE ME HIS DENIAL else cut the crap.

And... wow he drank alcohol 30 years ago in college years- if thats the best you can do to make him out to be a corrupt person without any morals then people need to take a look in the mirror.

As for "read my lips no new taxes" that was sr, and in case you dont know american law, those taxes were drafted in the congress by the opposing party, not by Bush sr.

besides, I am talking about jr. Bush Sr was out of touch anyway. Bush jr. is not a liar. and if the best ppl can come up with is drinking and driving act waaay back in 1974, that tells me he is a DARN good man with VERY HIGH integrity.

[Acriku]

1) I said it was Sr. no need to tell me this again.

2) Show me where it says he admitted from day one that this was the way it is.

3) I just did quote telling about his denial, why must I go to great lengths to convince you, who doesn't seem to ever be convinced about anything? I am merely discussing this quote I have quoted. You don't like it? Too bad, because I put it there and I meant it for discussion. Hint: The "how about this". Don't want to discuss it, but instead deny all credibility of it, then fine.

4)No new taxes was his promise during elections. He promised that there would be none. Then he PROPOSED new taxes, which were implemented.