Spew All About Politics Here

[Dunenewt]

Exactly, Dunenewt. But it doesn't work that way! Money doesn't represent an absolute value. It only represents a fraction of the total wealth. That's why a government can't just print loads of money and make itself rich.

I know, I was agreeing with you!

[Edric O]

No, Emprworm, it is you who do not understand (in conclusion, we have a major communication problem).

How can I be envious and greedy when I don't want anything for myself? I only look at the poor, the homeless, the starving children dying in the cold, and I feel guilty. I feel guilty for being part of a system that denies them the slightest chance in life. I feel guilty because I know I am in no way superior, and maybe I deserve to be poor far more than they do. It is injustice of the highest order that I can enjoy luxuries while they are dying alone and miserable, in a dark ally at the base of a lavishly decorated mansion where the likes of ME have more money than they know what to do with!

I am not rich, and I am not poor. But I am no better than the rich OR the poor. We are all equal. I wish I could just give everything I have to the poor, but that would solve nothing. There are MILLIONS of miserable people out there. So I sit here, trying to convince people like YOU of the necessity to CHANGE our ways. We are ALL guilty for the poverty and misery in this world, and only TOGETHER can we do something about it!

[nemafakei]

"you'd still get mad if someone had a mansion"

No, I wouldn't. If someone has worked hard for it, then fair enough.

"you minimize poverty and I resent that"

This REALLY worries me.

[Dunenewt]

I think the problem is that with these you are looking at reducing the money by spreding it evenly. Rich people would not agree to this so you would only be left with poor people who want to come out of poverty. And with only poor people you don't have enough money to spread around and there is still no solution to the problem.

[Acriku]

Why do you guys worry about some people being poor? Some just don't care about their lives, so they don't get a job, and they thus become poor. Some are drug-addicts that spent their last dime on a dimebag (get it huh huh), etc. Why should they not be poor?

[Dunenewt]

If people aren't willing to be ruled by Nema's goverment then let them be poor

[Edric O]

If there is one thing I despise in this world, it is someone thinking himself to be superior to others.

Acriku, have you ever experienced poverty yourself? Do you realize that MILLIONS never even stand a chance to escape it? They are born in poverty, and will die in poverty. They are never given a chance. They have no hope and no future. Their lives are meaningless.

Can you imagine a more unjust and horrible punishment for the innocent?

[nemafakei]

"Why should they not be poor?"

In my system, those who refuse to work will be poor. Those who work hard, wherever they be, will be well off.

[Dunenewt]

Unfortunately, some people nowadays don't have to work very hard for their money *cough* David Beckham */cough*

[Acriku]

That I agree with totally Nema. Good boy ;)

Edric, if you had read my post carefully you would have seen that I talked only about the people who just didn't care, and the people who wasted their lives purposely on drugs or something. And I disagree about the live and die in poverty. It is not hopeless, there is usually a way out. It's sad to think an idealist like you suggest there is no hope for them.

[Dunenewt]

BTW Have you noticed how there is no notice of Money or Politics in the Dune books?

[emprworm]

yes it should worry you, Nema, because you do minimize it. And that is unfortunate for those who suffer from it. To those who suffer from poverty, it is not some ambiguous generalized philosophical concept that gets lost in a middle class crowd somewhere.

How can I be envious and greedy when I don't want anything for myself? I only look at the poor, the homeless, the starving children dying in the cold, and I feel guilty.

I'll tell you how, Edric. Because when I propose a world where there is no starving children, and no suffering people, you STILL resent a man owning a yacht. Here's what I would do in your system: I would get a bunch of my capitalist minded people together, and we would build some yachts ourselves. With a good machinist buddy, he could re-outfit our "standard" cars to have tinted windows, flaming paint jobs, beefed up motors and super powered sub-woofer stereos. Many people in our community will be envious of these really cool things. They would see me and my buddies out sailing the seas on our yacht having parties and get jealous that they don't have one. They aren't starving, they arent' hurting, they aren't suffering. Just jealous.

but that is their problem. Their greed. Their jealousy Their moral problem. Not mine.

[Dunenewt]

We could all become Buddhists!

;)

[Acriku]

Funny dunenewt, I read all about politics in Dune Messiah? Also with the mention of "solaris".

[Dunenewt]

Sorry I mean't poverty :P

[Acriku]

Oh ok ;) I'm trying to think of some mention of poverty-ridden fremen in the middle of Dune Messiah, but can't remember.

[Dunenewt]

But they are outside of the law

[nemafakei]

Ah... I thought you meant minimise as in reduce to a mimimum. And Yes, I would try to reduce world poverty... but I do not belittle it, which is what I now think you mean.

"it is not some ambiguous generalized philosophical concept"

It is an abstract idea. That is indisputable. I was trying to explain what it meant in logical terms.

That definition will fit anyone who is poor by global standards, let me assure you. It is a rther simple definition - poverty is basically when you work too hard and your quality of life is terrible for it. Yes? Are we agreed?

That was a concise wording of my earlier, more precise definiton.

Dunenewt, one point...

"reducing the money by spreding it evenly"

I sperad it according to how hard people work.

[Dunenewt]

But still relatively even to begin with.

110 units for someone who works hard

90 units for soneone who doesn't is what you said

[emprworm]

nema, read my posts on page 9, because we are not agreed. You belittle poverty and that upset me

[nemafakei]

Those who do suffer as you say on p9 are poor in my book as well! Just because I do not use emotive language does not mean I belittle poverty. Tell me how I am belittling poverty - how any of your statements about it being to do with hungry thirsty and so on does not correspond with me definition of poverty.

[nemafakei]

"110 units for someone who works hard

90 units for soneone who doesn't is what you said"

There were numbers off the top of my head. Obviously, the exact way pay is approportioned is not to be decided at this stage - we need to first agree that hardworking people should be paid more than the lazy {glares at emprworm}.

[Dunenewt]

Sorry, well I agree with your rules anyway

[nemafakei]

"I showed clearly how wealth can exist in an economy without poverty"

You showd only that wealth is at the expense of the ENTIRE population, thus the difference each wealthy person makes to each poor person is very small.

We must all work for wealth. Efficiency can only be increased by maximising potential - the poor are uneducated and hungry. By reducing poverty first (at the temporary expense of the unnecessarily rich), and finding a balance, we can increase wealth as an absolute far faster.

[emprworm]

we need to first agree that hardworking people should be paid more than the lazy {glares at emprworm}.

once again, you are putting everything on this concept of work. you cannot logically do this!

In order to judge someone's effort and work, you require a standard of comparison. And what will that be? OTHER PEOPLE OF COURSE.

You are putting people AGAINST EACH OTHER by judging one man because he didn't do or work enough compared to another. And you criticize competition? YOUR ENTIRE GOVERNMENT IS BASED UPON JUDGING PEOPLES PERFORMANCE AGAInST EACH OTHER- THIS iS FAR FAR WORSE THAN COMPETITION. THERE IS NO COOPERATION IN THIS, IT IS REPREHENSIBLE

I hope you can see how much i loathe your system.

I resent that. There is no cooperation in this. It is an abhorrent system where all citizens are in continuous judgment against their fellow neighbhors.

And then you deal with unqualified people casting judments on you. I work in network administration. The worst part of my job are when people who dont have a clue about this type of work expect me to do things that are just not realistic in their given time frame. They think I can take a computer, format the hard drive, re-install windows XP pro, join it to the network, configure security and hardware, install all the applications and do it all in an hour! They just don't have a clue. Hece your government workers cannot make honest judgments over people's efforts without being themselves experts in that field. BUt if they are experts in that field, they TOO SHOULD BE WORKING and not wasting time judging everyone. What a crazy system.

work is not just the burning of calories, Nema. There is more to work than burning calories. it is not fair of you to try and look at 2 people and figure out who 'worked the hardest' and then penalize the other guy who may have ACCOMPLISHED MORE but didn't give out a great of calorie burn as the other. One man can do more in 4 hours than another can in 8 hours. The guy who worked 4 hours, should therefore get to go home early, or your system ISNT FAIR and people will NOT be content! I can promise you this. A man who works more efficiently than another man is worth MORE to society and hence should receive preferential treatment. People who work hard at swinging shovels 8 hours a day are not doing as much for society as those who are trained to operate heavy machinery. Those who operate the heavy machinery should be paid MORE than those who swing shovels. If those who swing shovels dont like getting less, they need to GET TRAINED AND START LEARNING. Those who swing shovels may burn far more calories than the guy operating a tractor, but their efforts are worth MUCH LESS to society. Yet you PENALIZE the guy operating the heavy machinery by making him worth as much as a guy swinging a shovel. And you think the guy operating the tractor is going to put a big smile on his face and be happy over this? WAKE UP. You base all your earnings upon this concept of "work" and "effort" both of which you have no right to sit in judgment over. Who is Nema, just who are you and your bigoted councils to judge someone's personal effort? Maybe much of my work exists in THOUGHT. Maybe I am thinking for 8 hours a day figuring out more efficient ways to do things! And maybe i dont figure it out after one whole week of thinking. I guess I get penalized because I produced nothing.

Or maybe I am kicking back relaxing on my yacht with my laptop as I write the next revolutionary program for the new laser-based computer chips that my scientist buddies are inventing. As I sip my cool beverage and feed the seagulls, while sun tanning on my deck, I punch away at my laptop and complete the new code, and as a result, computer speeds go from 3ghz to 500gz, and I do more for humanity on the deck of my yacht drinking a strawberry martini than 1000 laborers swinging shovels for 10 years. And here is Nema and his little God-like councils PUNISHING me because I didnt burn enough calories that week.

"Uhhh, you were on your yacht last week during work hours?"

"Yea."

"YOU ARE PENALiZED YOU LAZY #$#$#$! NO PAY FOR YOU THIS WEEK"

"wait, sir, I was working on a program. I ...."

"SHUT UP YOU OPULENT LAZY PIECE OF #$$#! YOU SEE THOSE MEN OVER THERE OUT IN THE FIELD SWINGING SHOVELS? "

"uhh, yea i see them"

"THATS WHAT YOU SHOULD BE DOING! YOU CAN LEARN FROM THEM. GO GET A SHOVEL YOU LAZY WIMP AND MAYBE WE WILL PAY YOU NEXT WEEK! OH, AND BTW, GIVE US THAT PROGRAM YOU WROTE. IT IS OURS NOW, NOT YOURS. YOU OWN NOTHING, YOU LAZY #$$"

"But....."

"GET OUT OF HERE! GUARDS! CONFISCATE HIS OPULENT YACHT. GREED LIKE THIS IS NOT TOLERATED"

like I said earlier. please someone kill me mercifully before I have to live in a system like that.